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80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched [W:700]

Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

That gave me a migraine.

You forgot to mention that the "person being acted upon" knew she was pregnant and that her death would result in it's demise. Pro-lifers here seemed perfect okay with that, which surprised me.

You're surprised easily then. Personally, I see nothing surprising about people that believe that the born and the unborn have human rights approving of the mans actions.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Nope. The people in this thread.
OH! Gotcha...I see. Well...the answer remains constant. People like you have been around forever.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Yes, we know that now. But when we didn't, the pro-lifers didn't seem to think what the shooter did was wrong. I find it fascinating.

I am pro life and I would convict the shooter of Manslaughter.

In addition, if his apparent lack of remorse and suggestions that the killing was an execution are accurate, I would advocate that he receive the maximum allowable sentence for manslaughter.

In the end, howwever, the victim was not innocent and the circumstances do not support a charge of Second Degree Murder.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I am pro life and I would convict the shooter of Manslaughter.

In addition, if his apparent lack of remorse and suggestions that the killing was an execution are accurate, I would advocate that he receive the maximum allowable sentence for manslaughter.

In the end, howwever, the victim was not innocent and the circumstances do not support a charge of Second Degree Murder.

The victim was innocent of any actions deserving execution.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I am pro life and I would convict the shooter of Manslaughter.

In addition, if his apparent lack of remorse and suggestions that the killing was an execution are accurate, I would advocate that he receive the maximum allowable sentence for manslaughter.

In the end, howwever, the victim was not innocent and the circumstances do not support a charge of Second Degree Murder.

Same here. I am pro-life, anti-death penalty. I think, regardless of his age, he should serve time.

Also, I think the fact that the woman lied about being pregnant is irrelevant. She told him she was - he should have gone on that assumption until it was proved otherwise. Personally, I think the guy was an animal. She was running away. If he wanted to prevent her coming back to do it again, he should have fired a few shots into the air to let them know he had a gun (although that isn't working out so well for Marissa Alexander). Either way, if she was running away, and he shot her in the back, he's a reprehensible bastard who deserves anything that is coming to him.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Where the hell did you get sharia in that? DO you have Muslims on the brain?
The similarities were obvious to me--the hand thing and theft, you know.

Except that, iirc, sharia requires some sort of a judge or other jurist and testifying witnesses etc.
So, I guess I see your point.

You're really just advocating that we mete out corporal punishment to our fellow citizens on an ad hoc basis to help fight crime.
This is actually much different.
My bad.

Why is it that we're not each already authorized to do as you suggest?
Is it because we have become a nation of ******s?

If we had all 300 million of us dishing out justice like this, crime would be gone in a couple of weeks, yes?
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

`
There is every reason to believe that the woman was lying when she yelled to the man she was robbing, that she was pregnant. While she unfortunately was pregnant, that is not the issue here, which is under California law, did the man have a right to shoot at anyone while they were fleeing.

No, she was NOT pregnant. Stop repeating that misinformation.

Evenso, I will repeat, if the 80yo was still able to grab a gun and chase people into an alley and then shoot and drag a body back to his property, it's murder. He wasn't "beaten" as he claims, and was instead insulted and vengeful, not self-defensive or in immediate danger.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

The victim was innocent of any actions deserving execution.

And for that reason, the shooter needs to be criminally charged.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Evenso, I will repeat, if the 80yo was still able to grab a gun and chase people into an alley and then shoot and drag a body back to his property, it's murder. He wasn't "beaten" as he claims, and was instead insulted and vengeful, not self-defensive or in immediate danger.
Then you are not considering the effects that adrenalin has on a person regardless of age.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Same here. I am pro-life, anti-death penalty. I think, regardless of his age, he should serve time.

Also, I think the fact that the woman lied about being pregnant is irrelevant. She told him she was - he should have gone on that assumption until it was proved otherwise. Personally, I think the guy was an animal. She was running away. If he wanted to prevent her coming back to do it again, he should have fired a few shots into the air to let them know he had a gun (although that isn't working out so well for Marissa Alexander). Either way, if she was running away, and he shot her in the back, he's a reprehensible bastard who deserves anything that is coming to him.

It is good to see a progressive who is pro life. I wish there were more of you.

That aside, for me the shooters words describing the incident were far more reprehensible than his actions. I could understand, though might still convict the shooter if the fact pattern was:

- "I was robbed and beaten in my home. I managed to get a weapon and fired at them. I continued to chase and fire at them as they were running away. She tried to speak to me, I ignored her and shot her. I should not have done it, but my blood was up."

Instead there seems to be a fact pattern of:

- "I got robbed and beaten in my home. I chased them down and executed one of them. I have no regrets, I knew she claimed she was pregant, I still killed her and I would do it again..."
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I am pro life and I would convict the shooter of Manslaughter.

In addition, if his apparent lack of remorse and suggestions that the killing was an execution are accurate, I would advocate that he receive the maximum allowable sentence for manslaughter.

In the end, howwever, the victim was not innocent and the circumstances do not support a charge of Second Degree Murder.
because he intended to kill her while she was retreating, i would instead subscribe to a murder two indictment
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

because he intended to kill her while she was retreating, i would instead subscribe to a murder two indictment

Though I see your point, I think it falls short. At the end of the day, the shooter shot her while fleeing after she entered his home, beat him and robbed him. '

I would only indict for Murder 2 if say:

- They were burglarizing the home, or a garage, never attacked the shooter and immediatedly tried to flee
- The Shooter had baited them into committing the crime (Montana incident)
- The shooter had stated that he intended to kill any and all burglars, not matter the circumstances (Montana incident).
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Here is the thing.
Humans get caught up in the emotional excitement of traumatic situations.
It doesn't matter their age.

Most folks understand the following.
A person walks in on their spouse cheating.
That person gets so caught up in emotion that they go get a gun and start firing away even when their spouse is fleeing.​

Most folks understand the above, yet they fail to understand being emotionally caught up under other circumstances, such as this case.
They both are similar in that they are traumatic experiences where the individual gets caught up in the emotions of the moment.

I would suggest that folks start understanding and considering being caught up in the emotions of the moment when judging such.



What the guy did was illegal, but understandable.
I hope the jury walks him, or that he receives the lightest sentence possible.
I doubt anything harsher serves any actual purpose.




As for the following that was slipped in this topic.

Just following Barack "If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon" Obama's lead.

And as a side note, I would have convicted Zimmerman of negligent homicide if Florida law allowed it.
Negligent homicide?
iLOL :lamo
He deliberately shot Trayvon in self-defense. That is not negligence.
And you doing so would fly in the face of the evidence. So all you would have done is idiotically hung the jury.


Rather than Second Degree Murder, the appropriate charges seem to be Criminally Negligent Homicide (Zimmerman) and Manslaughter (California guy).
:doh
Not for Zimmerman, as he was acting in self defense.
It's like you forgot all the evidence presented in Court.


Actually, Zimmerman did not confront Martin solely to shoot him. Had he done so, I doubt he would have called the police first and I also doubt he would have advised the police that he was following / chasing Martin.

Rather, Zimmerman arguably initiated a confrontation that escalated beyond his control. As a result, he "fell back" on the weapon he carried.
You seem to have forgotten, Zimmerman didn't confront Trayvon at all.
Trayvon confronted him. Has to return to an area he was not in to do it. Either that, or he laid in wait.

So no, simply following to keep eyes on a suspicious person until the police arrive, is not "arguably initiating a confrontation".
Trayvon returning to, or coming out of hiding, once Zimmerman stopped keeping eyes on him was the initiation of the confrontation.


still seems a lot worse then what this guy did espshsily considering that the police told Zimmerman to back off before he initiated his confrontation
Zimmerman did not initiate the confrontation, and the police never told him to back off.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

From what I remember, he'd been robbed twice before when he wasn't at home. Where are you getting that these same people did it twice before?

I do think it's likely they would have killed him before they left, though, since he'd seen them and they'd already beat the livin' daylights out of him. At least, if I were him, I'd have made that assumption.

He said in his interview it was the same people but he didn't say how he knew.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

The Shooter had baited them into committing the crime (Montana incident)
There was no baiting.


The shooter had stated that he intended to kill any and all burglars, not matter the circumstances (Montana incident).
:doh Blowing off steam is not intent.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Here is the thing.
Humans get caught up in the emotional excitement of traumatic situations.
It doesn't matter their age.

Most folks understand the following.
A person walks in on their spouse cheating.
That person gets so caught up in emotion that they go get a gun and start firing away even when their spouse is fleeing.​

Most folks understand the above, yet they fail to understand being emotionally caught up under other circumstances, such as this case.
They both are similar in that they are traumatic experiences where the individual gets caught up in the emotions of the moment.

I would suggest that folks start understanding and considering being caught up in the emotions of the moment when judging such.

What the guy did was illegal, but understandable.

I hope the jury walks him, or that he receives the lightest sentence possible. I doubt anything harsher serves any actual purpose.

You and I seldom agree, and I didn't agree with you when I first posted on this thread. But something that Thom Paine said registered with me. And you express it here very well. He was wrapped up in the moment. Probably thought he was going to die if he didn't get hold of his gun. (I would have thought so. He'd seen their faces. One was a felon.)

So, I have to say, Excon. I'm with you on this one. ;)
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

He said in his interview it was the same people but he didn't say how he knew.

I actually don't think he did, Mason. (Say that, I mean.)
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Here is the thing.
Humans get caught up in the emotional excitement of traumatic situations.
It doesn't matter their age.

Most folks understand the following.
A person walks in on their spouse cheating.
That person gets so caught up in emotion that they go get a gun and start firing away even when their spouse is fleeing.​

Most folks understand the above, yet they fail to understand being emotionally caught up under other circumstances, such as this case.
They both are similar in that they are traumatic experiences where the individual gets caught up in the emotions of the moment.

I would suggest that folks start understanding and considering being caught up in the emotions of the moment when judging such.



What the guy did was illegal, but understandable.
I hope the jury walks him, or that he receives the lightest sentence possible.
I doubt anything harsher serves any actual purpose.




As for the following that was slipped in this topic.

Negligent homicide?
iLOL :lamo
He deliberately shot Trayvon in self-defense. That is not negligence.
And you doing so would fly in the face of the evidence. So all you would have done is idiotically hung the jury.


:doh
Not for Zimmerman, as he was acting in self defense.
It's like you forgot all the evidence presented in Court.



You seem to have forgotten, Zimmerman didn't confront Trayvon at all.
Trayvon confronted him. Has to return to an area he was not in to do it. Either that, or he laid in wait.

So no, simply following to keep eyes on a suspicious person until the police arrive, is not "arguably initiating a confrontation".
Trayvon returning to, or coming out of hiding, once Zimmerman stopped keeping eyes on him was the initiation of the confrontation.


Zimmerman did not initiate the confrontation, and the police never told him to back off.
can't agree with that
each of us, once we achieve the age of emancipation, is responsible for our emotions
to be adult is to avoid allowing others to affect one's emotions. it's how we accept personal responsibility
his justified anger at being a B&E victim (multiple times) and being physically assaulted, does not justify his revenge murder of a woman in retreat
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

You and I have entirely different definitions of the word "imminent."

I am sure we do.

Should the man sit in his apartment waiting for them to come back and finish the job?

Is that what you would do?
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

can't agree with that
each of us, once we achieve the age of emancipation, is responsible for our emotions
to be adult is to avoid allowing others to affect one's emotions. it's how we accept personal responsibility
his justified anger at being a B&E victim (multiple times) and being physically assaulted, does not justify his revenge murder of a woman in retreat
You don't have to agree, but you have totally missed the point of being caught up in the moment of a traumatic experience.
Unless trained, hardly anyone has control when experiencing such trauma.
And you are suggesting revenge murder. BS. He was caught up.
Just in case; No he didn't say he did it to send a message.


What the guy did was illegal, but understandable.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I actually don't think he did, Mason. (Say that, I mean.)

I watched his interview on Channel 4 and that is exactly what he said, which made me think how he could have known it was the same 2 people.

He also made a comment about the key for the safe being in a different place this time, so it sounded like both times before the burglars knew where the key was.

It is wierd.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

No, she was NOT pregnant. Stop repeating that misinformation.

I wonder whether CBS or CNN has it wrong:

"[Long Beach Police Chief] McDonnell said an autopsy will provide the answer as to whether Miller really was pregnant. Police in Long Beach, California mull charges for Tom Greer, 80, who fatally shot female burglar who said she was pregnant - CBS News

"The woman was not pregnant, Ed Winter of the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office told CNN on Friday." Man, 80, to be charged for killing 'pregnant' intruder? - CNN.com
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

You don't have to agree, but you have totally missed the point of being caught up in the moment of a traumatic experience. Unless trained, hardly anyone has control when experiencing such trauma.

That's the thing--he returns home, is assaulted (broken collarbone and other more "minor" injuries, and I put that in quotes because at 80, surely nothing is minor), grabs the gun, adrenalin is pumping and fight-or-flight instinct is kicking in....

But I still don't understand shooting someone who's running away in the back. In pain and terrified, he was out of control. Lost control of his good judgment.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I wonder whether CBS or CNN has it wrong:

"[Long Beach Police Chief] McDonnell said an autopsy will provide the answer as to whether Miller really was pregnant. Police in Long Beach, California mull charges for Tom Greer, 80, who fatally shot female burglar who said she was pregnant - CBS News

"The woman was not pregnant, Ed Winter of the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office told CNN on Friday." Man, 80, to be charged for killing 'pregnant' intruder? - CNN.com

Do you really wonder which one is correct?

The story at 3:51 PM or the one at 10:49 PM when they had more information?
 
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