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80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched [W:700]

Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

still seems a lot worse then what this guy did espshsily considering that the police told Zimmerman to back off before he initiated his confrontation

Zimmerman, though he contributed to his predicament (how much is debatable) was being actively attacked when he killed Martin. The other guy, judging from his words, executed the woman. I think there are too many subjective factors to determine who was worse.

In the end, I think both Zimmerman and this guy were over charged. Rather than Second Degree Murder, the appropriate charges seem to be Criminally Negligent Homicide (Zimmerman) and Manslaughter (California guy).

In the case of the California shooter, the judge can then use the totality of the circumstances when assigning a penalty- the man had just been beaten and robbed vs "How deliberate was the execution"?
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Thank you Mr. Limbaugh. Your racist attitude is showing like the ass on a baboon.

I don't know where you got Limbaugh or racist out of that.

"The pregnant bitch got everything it deserved" is a disturbing statement, particularly the use of the dehumanizing pronoun "it."
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Sure it is, just because you are 80 doesn't mean you won't get put away for murder.

Exactly. I'm trying to figure out when age became a determining factor in whether or not to prosecute somebody for murder (or manslaughter, or whatever they charge him with).
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Well...that would be a different kettle of fish. In a fight for my life, her yelling, "I'm pregnant" wouldn't even slow me down. (I hope.) That's not we have here, though.

When you think about it, this is a very interesting 80-year-old guy. He apparently got beat up pretty bad...broke his collar bone as I understand it. Seems he started shooting at them while in the house, and they got the hell out of Dodge. Me? I'd be so grateful to see them running away, I think the adrenalin rush would leave, and I'd be a puddle of relief. This guy goes after them, shooting as they flee.

I've softened in my stance somewhat though. Can we really expect that an 80-year-old man would be thinking clearly after taking a beating, figuring he's probably going to be killed before they leave? Is it fair to impose the "arm-chair self-control" I've applied to this guy? I'm no longer sure it is. There's probably no more vulnerable an adult than an 80-year-old unless it's an 83-year-old. Typically, they're frail; no upper body strength; poor balance; extremely poor reflexes; yada yada yada.

Do we judge him as we'd judge ourselves? As we might judge a TurtleDude? Or a law enforcement officer? Or do we judge him taking into account the extremely vulnerable position these robbers put him in?

Hmmmm....maybe I was wrong.

Remember this was the third time these same 2 have been there to rob him. The fourth time they might have succedded in killing him. They sure tried this time.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

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There is every reason to believe that the woman was lying when she yelled to the man she was robbing, that she was pregnant. While she unfortunately was pregnant, that is not the issue here, which is under California law, did the man have a right to shoot at anyone while they were fleeing.

Surprising enough she was lying when she said she was pregnant.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Sadly yes, but mom made it collateral damage.

See, this is the problem that I have. Pro lifers hold a hard-lined position about the rights of the unborn child. It does not matter if the mother is homeless, got raped, and/or is a murdering thief... the child is still innocent and needs protection. No ifs, ands or buts about it, except if she is shot by someone protecting his property. :roll: Not very consistent, and to me, it opens your no holds barred stance on abortion.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Here's a question for some people: What if the gunman missed and hit an innocent bystander, would that have been the dead woman's fault too?

Dunno' for sure TC... as I understand ... any death during the commission of a crime is attributable to the party committing that crime.... If the be true..then Yes

maybe I'm wrong

Thom Paine
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Remember this was the third time these same 2 have been there to rob him. The fourth time they might have succedded in killing him. They sure tried this time.

From what I remember, he'd been robbed twice before when he wasn't at home. Where are you getting that these same people did it twice before?

I do think it's likely they would have killed him before they left, though, since he'd seen them and they'd already beat the livin' daylights out of him. At least, if I were him, I'd have made that assumption.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

See, this is the problem that I have. Pro lifers hold a hard-lined position about the rights of the unborn child. It does not matter if the mother is homeless, got raped, and/or is a murdering thief... the child is still innocent and needs protection. No ifs, ands or buts about it, except if she is shot by someone protecting his property. :roll: Not very consistent, and to me, it opens your no holds barred stance on abortion.

No, in both cases she would be acting on another person that pro-lifers see as having basic human rights and in both cases she is responsible for the well being of the child. I don't see anything about their logic that is inconsistent.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

See, this is the problem that I have. Pro lifers hold a hard-lined position about the rights of the unborn child. It does not matter if the mother is homeless, got raped, and/or is a murdering thief... the child is still innocent and needs protection. No ifs, ands or buts about it, except if she is shot by someone protecting his property. :roll: Not very consistent, and to me, it opens your no holds barred stance on abortion.

Argue the point you're making, of course. But later information revealed that the woman was not pregnant.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Good to know there was no innocent victim here, just a liar who attacked a homeowner in his home after trying to steal his property and got shot.

Going to need something quite compelling to turn this around on the homeowner, because in a situation like this, he certainly deserves every benefit of the doubt.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

what I found to be strange is, even after the robbers were discovered, they attacked the homeowner beating him, long enough to go back to robbing again.

these people have no respect for property and other people.

I know law does not cover shooting people fleeing, but being honest, I would have shot and killed them to.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I know law does not cover shooting people fleeing, but being honest, I would have shot and kill them to.

In California? No, their laws make the prospect of owning a gun odious, let alone using one in self-defense.

In my state? We can absolutely shoot a thief trying to make off with our property.

It matters to me whether or not they had stolen anything, and since they were inside after breaking in and messing with his safe, I think it likely they had stolen at least some item of opportunity. But I will wait for the facts to be sussed out. Major details are yet to be known here - when you rush to a story and rush to make conclusions, you end up with thread titles and news articles that include falsehoods - case in point, the thief was not pregnant.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Dunno' for sure TC... as I understand ... any death during the commission of a crime is attributable to the party committing that crime.... If the be true..then Yes

maybe I'm wrong

Thom Paine

I'm fairly certain that a death caused by a secondary crime that is committed in response to the initial crime is attributable to the initiating party. For example, if I pick a dudes pocket and he decides to shoot a baby in the park across the street, I doubt I'm going to be on the hook for his actions.

Personal responsibility means that everyone is responsible for their OWN actions, not the actions of others.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

No, in both cases she would be acting on another person that pro-lifers see as having basic human rights and in both cases she is responsible for the well being of the child. I don't see anything about their logic that is inconsistent.

Huh? In English please.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

In California? No, their laws make the prospect of owning a gun odious, let alone using one in self-defense.

In my state? We can absolutely shoot a thief trying to make off with our property.

It matters to me whether or not they had stolen anything, and since they were inside after breaking in and messing with his safe, I think it likely they had stolen at least some item of opportunity. But I will wait for the facts to be sussed out. Major details are yet to be known here.

granted. I don't know all state laws. my state, you have to feel threaten to shoot.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I'm fairly certain that a death caused by a secondary crime that is committed in response to the initial crime is attributable to the initiating party. For example, if I pick a dudes pocket and he decides to shoot a baby in the park across the street, I doubt I'm going to be on the hook for his actions.

Personal responsibility means that everyone is responsible for their OWN actions, not the actions of others.


I'm not sure of the applicability of your example.. but you may be correct.... ????

Good day to you Tuck
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Argue the point you're making, of course. But later information revealed that the woman was not pregnant.

Yes, we know that now. But when we didn't, the pro-lifers didn't seem to think what the shooter did was wrong. I find it fascinating.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Huh? In English please.

I'm not sure what other language I was using to be honest. If it's a grammar mistake, fine, but I was using the English language. She is the party that is responsible for the life of the unborn and her actions will lead to either it's birth or it's demise. If she is acting on another person while being pregnant there is no reason that the person being acted upon doesn't have the right to defend their own life. If you believe that the unborn has the right to life there is no reason for you to accept her actions towards the unborn as being justified when she decides to abort her pregnancy.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Do you think that is a good law? Would you shoot someone running away from you with some of your say moderately valuable stuff?[/QUOTE


Hell yes!!!!!
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Hell yes!!!!!

Indeed. It's my property and I'm going to do what is necessary to reacquire it. If that means shooting them in the back, so be it.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I'm not sure of the applicability of your example.. but you may be correct.... ????

Good day to you Tuck

Good day to you too!

Ultimately, the real issue is whether or not the action committed by the old man was a crime in response to a crime or a valid attempt at self-defense. If he chased her down as she fled or had her subdued and decided to shoot in a retaliatory/vigilante fashion, it's a crime. He was acting as judge jury and executioner and bypassing the judicial system. If, however, any reasonable person in his situation would have still feared for their own safety based on an imminent threat that she posed, he was justified in self-defense.

This is why there is a judicial system. He's presenting an affirmative defense which appears to be in contradiction to the described events. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty, but so was she. Due to his affirmative defense, there must be clear evidence that she did in fact commit a crime (presumably easy if there was a crime) and he needs to prove that he was still in imminent danger due to his defense being an affirmative defense (like an insanity defense, a self-defense argument must have supporting evidence before it is accepted). He has admitted to performing the action that may be criminal. Thus, he should be charged in order to allow a jury of his peers to decide if his defense is justified.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

I'm not sure what other language I was using to be honest. If it's a grammar mistake, fine, but I was using the English language. She is the party that is responsible for the life of the unborn and her actions will lead to either it's birth or it's demise. If she is acting on another person while being pregnant there is no reason that the person being acted upon doesn't have the right to defend their own life. If you believe that the unborn has the right to life there is no reason for you to accept her actions towards the unborn as being justified when she decides to abort her pregnancy.

That gave me a migraine.

You forgot to mention that the "person being acted upon" knew she was pregnant and that her death would result in it's demise. Pro-lifers here seemed perfect okay with that, which surprised me.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Good day to you too!

Ultimately, the real issue is whether or not the action committed by the old man was a crime in response to a crime or a valid attempt at self-defense. If he chased her down as she fled or had her subdued and decided to shoot in a retaliatory/vigilante fashion, it's a crime. He was acting as judge jury and executioner and bypassing the judicial system. If, however, any reasonable person in his situation would have still feared for their own safety based on an imminent threat that she posed, he was justified in self-defense.

This is why there is a judicial system. He's presenting an affirmative defense which appears to be in contradiction to the described events. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty, but so was she. Due to his affirmative defense, there must be clear evidence that she did in fact commit a crime (presumably easy if there was a crime) and he needs to prove that he was still in imminent danger due to his defense being an affirmative defense (like an insanity defense, a self-defense argument must have supporting evidence before it is accepted). He has admitted to performing the action that may be criminal. Thus, he should be charged in order to allow a jury of his peers to decide if his defense is justified.

I agree with your statement in its' entirety.

:peace

Thom Paine
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

The victim said this is the third time they have tried to rob him.

They suspects both climbed through his window, which are not big in a small apartment like that, and were wrestling with a safe when he walked in.

Does any of that give you an indication that the woman was actually pregnant?

This was the third time they have been there to rob him, but he made sure there would not be a fourth.

He did what he had to do.

I think the imminent threat in this case could be extended being that he could be sure they would try it again and they came close this time to killing him.

You and I have entirely different definitions of the word "imminent."
 
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