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80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched [W:700]

Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

tres borrachos said:
Happy Friday TNE!
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You too, I need more coffee, going to get some now :2wave:
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

TheNextEra said:
The guy is going to go to prison. Shooting an unarmed person running in the back and then gloating about it is not going to win any points with a Jury. There was no threat and there was no risk to property or life at that point and time.

Wonder when all the pro-lifers are going to come in here complaining about it....oh wait....don't see any.

EDIT: Change that, have seen some so ignore the no pro-lifers comment I made, my apologies.
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i doubt he will see a day in jail. of course if he lives in CA then who knows they are nuts out there anyway.

sorry he has every right to defend himself and his property.
they broke in beat him up he has every right to fire.

if she was so worried about her baby she wouldn't have been committed a robbery.
this guy is screwed he is in CA. any other state no charges would have been filed and they shouldn't be.

he has a right to defend his property and himself from threat of violence and that is what he did.
 
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Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

ludin said:
i doubt he will see a day in jail. of course if he lives in CA then who knows they are nuts out there anyway.

sorry he has every right to defend himself and his property.
they broke in beat him up he has every right to fire.
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The #1 reason that is going to sink him is his OWN admission he "did it to send a message". In other words, he didn't do it to protect his life, he didn't do it to protect his property, he did it out of malice. Had he just kept his mouth shut and not mention that, he probably would have been ok.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

TheNextEra said:
The #1 reason that is going to sink him is his OWN admission he "did it to send a message". In other words, he didn't do it to protect his life, he didn't do it to protect his property, he did it out of malice. Had he just kept his mouth shut and not mention that, he probably would have been ok.
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"send a message" doesn't always have to be to the person he shot. The message was probably for others who would think of robbing him. It's less malice, more prevention and not appearing to be an easy target.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

TheNextEra said:
The #1 reason that is going to sink him is his OWN admission he "did it to send a message". In other words, he didn't do it to protect his life, he didn't do it to protect his property, he did it out of malice. Had he just kept his mouth shut and not mention that, he probably would have been ok.
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i doubt they will give life to an 80 year old man. he is going to die in a few years anyway.
he did send a message to other people that would try to rob him. they will get shot as well.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

TheNextEra said:
Yeah I added a "edited" comment to include that when I saw it, my apologies.
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To be fair, if you want to be critical of me, be critical of me, as I defended the killing based on the limited information I have at this time. It seems you think this is somehow hypocritical. I will elaborate then.

I do support the right to life. I also support the right to property. I support using force in self-defense if someone initiates force against you. Breaking into your house, trying to steal your safe, and attacking you... all of these are unwarranted aggression. They were in the wrong. I am going to be prone to stand with the person who had a right to be there against the criminals with no respect for his human rights. I don't think he has an absolute carte blanche to do ANYTHING, but shooting someone who has broken into your home, in general terms, is morally permissible and usually entirely appropriate.

Based on what we know, this couple broke into this elderly man's home and attacked him. He was justified in the use of lethal force as soon as we determined they were home invaders. Hell, you would justified to use force against them at the point of attempting home invasion.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

CycloneWanderer said:
"send a message" doesn't always have to be to the person he shot. The message was probably for others who would think of robbing him. It's less malice, more prevention and not appearing to be an easy target.
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Point being it is not legal to "send a message" by shooting someone period. He let his intentions be know it wasn't to protect property and it wasn't to protect his life.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

JayDubya said:
To be fair, if you want to be critical of me, be critical of me, as I defended the killing based on the limited information I have at this time. It seems you think this is somehow hypocritical. I will elaborate then.

I do support the right to life. I also support the right to property. I support using force in self-defense if someone initiates force against you. Breaking into your house, trying to steal your safe, and attacking you... all of these are unwarranted aggression. They were in the wrong. I am going to be prone to stand with the person who had a right to be there against the criminals with no respect for his human rights. I don't think he has an absolute carte blanche to do ANYTHING, but shooting someone who has broken into your home, in general terms, is morally permissible and usually entirely appropriate.

Based on what we know, this couple broke into this elderly man's home and attacked him. He was justified in the use of lethal force as soon as we determined they were home invaders. Hell, you would justified to use force against them at the point of attempting home invasion.
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Up to a point you are right. However when he openly admits he did the shooting to "send a message", all that goes out the window. Two wrongs don't make a right and the guy was in the wrong on this one by his OWN admission he didn't do it to protect life or property.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

TheNextEra said:
Up to a point you are right. However when he openly admits he did the shooting to "send a message", all that goes out the window. Two wrongs don't make a right and the guy was in the wrong on this one by his OWN admission he didn't do it to protect life or property.
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I'd go a lot further than that. When you shoot someone in the back who is running away from you, there is no way that should be a legal shooting. He's going to jail. If not? Then our laws are cockeyed.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

MaggieD said:
I'd go a lot further than that. When you shoot someone in the back who is running away from you, there is no way that should be a legal shooting. He's going to jail. If not? Then our laws are cockeyed.
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I can see reasons for shooting someone in the back. For instance, if they had stolen something valuable and would not stop, that is one thing. To shoot someone who has stopped and is begging for their life as well as the life of their unborn child is a heinous crime that demands justification. Also, this fool admitted as much and said he shot her anyway.

This old fool needs to be charged with murder, and he should spend the rest of his sorry years locked up!
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Thom Paine said:
While most could agree that this is tragic, it does seem that the mother can share in the responsibility for a child's death due to placing that child in such a high risk situation; had she not made the choice to rob and pummel an old man both mother and child would be still alive. This is not an excuse for what will likely be determined a bad shoot ( based upon published info ) but there is much blame to be shared by the mother and her compatriot.

Find a reason to smile today

Thom Paine
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JayDubya said:
It is morally permissible to defend your life, your liberty, and your property against aggression. A robber is an aggressor. If you have the means to stop them from harming you, there is nothing wrong with employing said means.

You can defend your property in my state. You should be allowed to wherever you live.

It is an awful shame that an innocent kid was killed, however.
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Was the child part of the decision of the rob the place?
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Middleground said:
Which makes this act -- including killing an innocent child -- revolting.
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I don't see how? He didn't know she was pregnant. She is a thief, she could have just as easily been lying about it.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

CRUE CAB said:
I don't see how? He didn't know she was pregnant. She is a thief, she could have just as easily been lying about it.
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Did you read the article? She did plead for mercy for her and her baby.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Middleground said:
Did you read the article? She did plead for mercy for her and her baby.
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Too bad. Don't commit crime while pregnant. Old people don't care.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

CRUE CAB said:
Too bad. Don't commit crime while pregnant. Old people don't care.
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But the child was innocent, no? Take the mother out of the equation for an instance. Tell me... why did the child deserve to die?
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Middleground said:
Was the child part of the decision of the rob the place?
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I don't understand the applicability of your question and will assume it is rhetorical.

Ultimately, the parent bears onus for the well being of that child. She placed the child in harms way that caused the demise of that child ergo she is guilty of the child's death. No different than leaving a child in a closed hot car causing the death of the trapped child.

This may not relieve the responsibility for what may have been a bad shoot.

:peace

Thom Paine
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Middleground said:
But the child was innocent, no? Take the mother out of the equation for an instance. Tell me... why did the child deserve to die?
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The mother cannot be removed from the situation.... the situation was created and caused by the mother.

Thom Paine
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Middleground said:
But the child was innocent, no? Take the mother out of the equation for an instance. Tell me... why did the child deserve to die?
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Its not a matter of being "deserving", MOM put the child at risk.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

CRUE CAB said:
Its not a matter of being "deserving", MOM put the child at risk.
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What risk is there when someone is pleading for their life? It was a straight up execution.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

TheNextEra said:
What risk is there when someone is pleading for their life? It was a straight up execution.
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We were not there, so we really don't know what if any pleading was going on.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Thom Paine said:
The mother cannot be removed from the situation.... the situation was created and caused by the mother.

Thom Paine
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CRUE CAB said:
Its not a matter of being "deserving", MOM put the child at risk.
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So, in essence, a woman should be 100% responsible for whatever happens to the child inside her womb and that 'the child' has no say. I'm guessing you're pro-choice.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Good for old Tom.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Middleground said:
So, in essence, a woman should be 100% responsible for whatever happens to the child inside her womb and that 'the child' has no say. I'm guessing you're pro-choice.
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How does making the woman responsible for her unborn child make me pro-choice? And how does pro life or pro choice even fit in here?
She was pregnant and knew it, she committed crimes while pregnant. Sounds like she make all the choices.
 
Re: 80-Year-Old Extremely Pleased About Killing Pregnant Woman Fleeing Botched Robber

Middleground said:
Was the child part of the decision of the rob the place?
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Of course not. The kid doesn't deserve to die. The guy didn't deserve to be robbed.

Frankly, when you break into people's homes AND try to steal their belongings AND physically attack them, you can expect to be shot. You arguably deserve to be shot.

She was clearly not very concerned with the well-being of her kid when she chose to commit this heinous act of aggression, an act that will often provoke a violent self-defense response from the victim. It is possible that full responsibility for the death of the kid is on his or her parents for their criminal act.

Possible, as I want to see all the facts in this case before saying anything definitive.
 
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