Page 30 of 33 FirstFirst ... 202829303132 ... LastLast
Results 291 to 300 of 327

Thread: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

  1. #291
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,184

    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    What are you saying exactly?


    Exactly what I said: that some cultures are more inclined to violence than others.


    For instance, Vikings were more inclined to violence than Hindus. Right? Pretty obvious I thought...

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  2. #292
    Sage
    Crosscheck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:04 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,477

    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Exactly what I said: that some cultures are more inclined to violence than others.


    For instance, Vikings were more inclined to violence than Hindus. Right? Pretty obvious I thought...
    You need to pick a better example. Actually the Hindus have a long history of violence against Muslims in India.
    Of course the Muslims aren't known for their peace loving ways either.

  3. #293
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,184

    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Crosscheck View Post
    You need to pick a better example. Actually the Hindus have a long history of violence against Muslims in India.
    Of course the Muslims aren't known for their peace loving ways either.

    I thought about that late last night... maybe should have said "Tibetan monks".

    But still, I'm thinking the Viking were still more aggressive and violent overall.



    But anyway, the point was that some cultures (and sub-cultures) are more inclined to accept or embrace violence than others. Americans are more violent than Canadians, for instance. Brit football hooligans are, as a sub-culture, far more violent than mainstream British culture, etc.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  4. #294
    Sage
    opendebate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    09-17-17 @ 01:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    7,315

    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I thought about that late last night... maybe should have said "Tibetan monks".

    But still, I'm thinking the Viking were still more aggressive and violent overall.



    But anyway, the point was that some cultures (and sub-cultures) are more inclined to accept or embrace violence than others. Americans are more violent than Canadians, for instance. Brit football hooligans are, as a sub-culture, far more violent than mainstream British culture, etc.
    Are you suggesting it's smarter to allow a more aggressive culture to have minimally restricted access to firearms ?
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

  5. #295
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,184

    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Are you suggesting it's smarter to allow a more aggressive culture to have minimally restricted access to firearms ?

    It's not a question of "allow", but of recognizing the realities of the situation. Some nations have rates of private gun ownership that are a tiny fraction of the US', but have several times our murder rate, as I've shown with sourced stats on a number of occasions.

    On a per-gun owned basis, we're one of the most peaceful nations on the planet, and I can prove that mathematically.


    What that means is most gun owners are not inclined towards lethal violence except as a last resort.

    Now back to the cultural thing.... we have a number of subcultures in the USA which embrace crime and violence as a way of life. You are NOT going to disarm them, no matter how draconian the gun control laws get, no matter how much of a police state you create (and who'd want to live in that? It would no longer be America).... any more than you can keep them from getting weed and cocaine and heroin, as the failed WoD attests.

    Gun control laws chiefly affect the law abiding and peaceable citizen, not the thug. They don't work any better than Prohibition did, than the current WoD has. What they chiefly due is end up making the honest citizen unarmed and easily victimized by the criminal thug.

    I'm all for disarming criminal thugs, if we can do so without infringing on the rights of honest citizens. I just have not yet heard of any good, reliable and effective way of doing so.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  6. #296
    Sage
    opendebate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    09-17-17 @ 01:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    7,315

    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It's not a question of "allow", but of recognizing the realities of the situation. Some nations have rates of private gun ownership that are a tiny fraction of the US', but have several times our murder rate, as I've shown with sourced stats on a number of occasions.

    On a per-gun owned basis, we're one of the most peaceful nations on the planet, and I can prove that mathematically.


    What that means is most gun owners are not inclined towards lethal violence except as a last resort.

    Now back to the cultural thing.... we have a number of subcultures in the USA which embrace crime and violence as a way of life. You are NOT going to disarm them, no matter how draconian the gun control laws get, no matter how much of a police state you create (and who'd want to live in that? It would no longer be America).... any more than you can keep them from getting weed and cocaine and heroin, as the failed WoD attests.

    Gun control laws chiefly affect the law abiding and peaceable citizen, not the thug. They don't work any better than Prohibition did, than the current WoD has. What they chiefly due is end up making the honest citizen unarmed and easily victimized by the criminal thug.

    I'm all for disarming criminal thugs, if we can do so without infringing on the rights of honest citizens. I just have not yet heard of any good, reliable and effective way of doing so.
    Sometimes your responses seem to me as if you oppose restrictions period. I know that's not your position though. Right? Let's just assume so for now. What would be the problem with making effective laws more consistent. IOW make them Federal Laws

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/18/opinio...a-gun-control/
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

  7. #297
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,184

    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Sometimes your responses seem to me as if you oppose restrictions period. I know that's not your position though. Right? Let's just assume so for now. What would be the problem with making effective laws more consistent. IOW make them Federal Laws

    Opinion: We need federal, not state, gun policy - CNN.com

    Bouncing all over today aren't we?


    The primary barrier to Federal gun regulation is the 2A. It makes any Federal regulation questionable at least.

    The barrier to Federal firearms regulations is properly Strict Constitutional Scrutiny... the same bar for restricting speech, religion or the press, or warrants/privacy/etc.

    1. Must be essential to society, not merely preferred.
    2. Must be the least restrictive means of accomplishing the goal in question.
    3. Must be narrowly construed.

    There is an implication here that it must have a specific goal and an implication that it must be effective at achieving that goal... two things most gun control fails on. If your object is to reduce violent crime, then the law should chiefly impact the criminal and not the honest citizen... another bar hardly any gun control can hurdle.

    Also our legal system despises prior restraint --- that is, restraining or restricting someone because they MIGHT theoretically do something bad, rather than because there is actual evidence they WILL do something bad.


    So yes, I support those restrictions that can clear all these hurdles... which very few can. Among them are:

    1. Restricting WMDs and strategic weapons systems.... that this is essential is a no brainer.
    2. Reasonable age restrictions: obviously minors do not get to enjoy all citizenship rights until they reach the age of majority.
    3. Restrictions on explosives: since they can be dangerous even sitting in a shed if not properly stored and maintained, and tend to be large-scale and indiscriminate in their destructive potential, restrictions on explosives makes sense.

    There's not much else that really passes muster. I find the NICS background check system tolerable since the burden on lawful citizens is minimal, even if technically it is a 2A infringement. I tolerate and accept CCW permits since they are preferable to what we had before, in the 70s. However neither of these restrictions has a substantial effect as to reducing violent crime, because criminals ignore the law and go around it.


    Very little I've heard proposed in recent years would meet the standard or do any substantive good, or affect criminals and crazies more than lawful citizens.... with the possible exception of restoring and revamping our mental health care system so that dangerously insane people are not running around loose, as is the case today.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  8. #298
    Sage
    opendebate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    09-17-17 @ 01:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    7,315

    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Bouncing all over today aren't we?
    I blame the coffee.
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

  9. #299
    Sage
    opendebate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    09-17-17 @ 01:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    7,315

    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Bouncing all over today aren't we?




    The barrier to Federal firearms regulations is properly Strict Constitutional Scrutiny... the same bar for restricting speech, religion or the press, or warrants/privacy/etc.

    1. Must be essential to society, not merely preferred.
    2. Must be the least restrictive means of accomplishing the goal in question.
    3. Must be narrowly construed.

    There is an implication here that it must have a specific goal and an implication that it must be effective at achieving that goal... two things most gun control fails on. If your object is to reduce violent crime, then the law should chiefly impact the criminal and not the honest citizen... another bar hardly any gun control can hurdle.

    Also our legal system despises prior restraint --- that is, restraining or restricting someone because they MIGHT theoretically do something bad, rather than because there is actual evidence they WILL do something bad.


    So yes, I support those restrictions that can clear all these hurdles... which very few can. Among them are:

    1. Restricting WMDs and strategic weapons systems.... that this is essential is a no brainer.
    2. Reasonable age restrictions: obviously minors do not get to enjoy all citizenship rights until they reach the age of majority.
    3. Restrictions on explosives: since they can be dangerous even sitting in a shed if not properly stored and maintained, and tend to be large-scale and indiscriminate in their destructive potential, restrictions on explosives makes sense.

    There's not much else that really passes muster. I find the NICS background check system tolerable since the burden on lawful citizens is minimal, even if technically it is a 2A infringement. I tolerate and accept CCW permits since they are preferable to what we had before, in the 70s. However neither of these restrictions has a substantial effect as to reducing violent crime, because criminals ignore the law and go around it.


    Very little I've heard proposed in recent years would meet the standard or do any substantive good, or affect criminals and crazies more than lawful citizens.... with the possible exception of restoring and revamping our mental health care system so that dangerously insane people are not running around loose, as is the case today.
    The primary barrier to Federal gun regulation is the 2A. It makes any Federal regulation questionable at least.
    But the way the 2A is interpreted has changed over time and it's meaning is still hotly debated.

    You actually believe for instance that a background check for private sales and sales at guns shows is a bad idea?
    Last edited by opendebate; 07-26-14 at 05:16 PM.
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

  10. #300
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,184

    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    But the way the 2A in interpreted has changed over time and it's meaning is still hotly debated.

    You actually believe for instance that a background check for private sales and sales at guns shows is a bad idea?

    It's meaning was very clear to the Founders; I've posted their words on the matter many times. Even if there was no 2A, I'd still argue that all honest persons should have the best available means to defend their lives, persons and liberty from personal assault and infringement. To me it is a basic principle of humanity and liberty.


    I think that a federal mandate for background checks at private/show sales is of dubious 2A compliance. Personally, I would not be so fervently opposed to it IF that was all there was to it.... but it almost never is. The same people pushing it are also usually pushing universal registration, AWB bans, and all manner of other crap.... how can I be sure they won't slip more into the bill than just background checks? Or that having gotten that, they will simply move on to their next, more restrictive agenda item and push that.... leaving those of us on the pro side with little motivation to compromise.

    Besides which, "closing the show/private sale loophole" will almost certainly have negligible impact on violent crime. Criminals will simply ignore the background check requirement, as they already do, and obtain weapons through fraud, theft or black market, as they already do.

    So why should I support something that will almost certainly be of little or no real use? And that will simply clear the way for the NEXT step in the anti's agenda.


    No reason at all, really.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

Page 30 of 33 FirstFirst ... 202829303132 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •