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Thread: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptyme View Post
    Regardless of race, if you were to see a stranger on you property in the middle of the night I doubt many would say you would be overly paranoid by feeling threatened. Now is that person is on drunk and on drugs there is no telling how the situation went down. She could have been out of her mind at that poimt in time and the old man felt genuinely scared for his life.

    Without having been there or seeing all of the evidence to condemn this man as some kimd of racist cowboy is a bit premature. If he is then I hope justice gets served but I believe in innocent until proven guilty or is that no longer acceptable.
    Since there has not yet been a trial all we have to comment on are the prima facie facts in the case as they present themselves.
    Of course the man will get his day in court and will have ample opportunity to defend his lethal reactions that night.
    Already the defense has begun siting "stand your ground" and "castle" laws, indicating that it is not very likely that it can be proved that McBride posed any real threat to Wafer... only that Wafer "perceived" a threat.
    These laws rely on perceptions and emotional state of the killer to get them off, ... not real threats.
    When murder can be legally justified by the "feelings" of the killer, the law is stupid and dangerous to all.

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It is already illegal to shoot someone JUST for being in your front yard!
    Oh good, then this man should go to jail because that's what this girl was doing.
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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Not if you think they're breaking into your shed it isn't. Or think they might break in your shed. Or think they're stealing a lawn ornament. Or probably a dozen other actions I could think of that supporters of broad Castle Laws could and do point out in discussions on this forum.

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    I apologize if I seemed to shout.

    However, I must point out there is a world of difference between "JUST standing in your front yard" and someone who appears to be attempting to break in or steal.

    Many states already do not allow lethal force in defense of property alone.... though frankly I think they should.

    And again, in almost all of these questionable cases being so loudly touted, CHARGES WERE FILED and a court will hear the evidence and decide... some are acting as if people are getting off scot free from murder by the scores when it is not so.

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Ewer View Post
    Since there has not yet been a trial all we have to comment on are the prima facie facts in the case as they present themselves.
    Of course the man will get his day in court and will have ample opportunity to defend his lethal reactions that night.
    Already the defense has begun siting "stand your ground" and "castle" laws, indicating that it is not very likely that it can be proved that McBride posed any real threat to Wafer... only that Wafer "perceived" a threat.
    These laws rely on perceptions and emotional state of the killer to get them off, ... not real threats.
    When murder can be legally justified by the "feelings" of the killer, the law is stupid and dangerous to all.

    Wrong. Their feelings are held to the "reasonable man standard". As in, "would a reasonable person in the same situation also perceive a serious threat?"

    It is NOT simply about the shooter's feelings alone. If their perception of threat is deemed unreasonable by a jury, then they are liable for their action.

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The actions of a handful of people with poor judgment do not justify needless constraints on the self-defense rights of hundreds of millions of citizens.

    If it were so, we would have gotten rid of automobiles long ago.


    ... and since charges have been filed, one can hardly say the system has failed to act to seek justice in this case.
    No, we didn't "get rid of cars" because all we needed to do was regulate them, just like we don't want to get rid of guns - we just need to regulate them.

    And to address your last sentence, the key isn't to press charges on the homeowner - the key is to at least try to prevent the crime from happening in the first place...which is what every other first-world democracy on the planet is doing by regulating firearms and firearm ownership...and as a direct result, ALL of them have much lower homicide rates.
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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I apologize if I seemed to shout.

    However, I must point out there is a world of difference between "JUST standing in your front yard" and someone who appears to be attempting to break in or steal.

    Many states already do not allow lethal force in defense of property alone.... though frankly I think they should.

    And again, in almost all of these questionable cases being so loudly touted, CHARGES WERE FILED and a court will hear the evidence and decide... some are acting as if people are getting off scot free from murder by the scores when it is not so.
    I'm happy if charges were filed because it lets the court air the circumstances. When I took my gun classes, one of the things that stuck in my mind was the instructor telling us, "Even if it's a righteous shoot, plan on spending $25,000 in legal fees to sort things out."
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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Not if you think they're breaking into your shed it isn't. Or think they might break in your shed. Or think they're stealing a lawn ornament. Or probably a dozen other actions I could think of that supporters of broad Castle Laws could and do point out in discussions on this forum.
    Breaking into your shed is not threatening your life, or putting your life in danger.

    You'd be reasonably tried for some level of homicide or manslaughter.

    Your lawn mower isn't worth killing somebody over.

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week | ThinkProgress

    Remember this story? From the article

    ..... latest trial to test the role of expansive self-defense laws in racially charged deaths by gunfire.

    In statements to the press, he called the shooting “justified” and “reasonable,” invoking language from Michigan’s “Shoot First” laws that allow immunity for some self-defense shootings.

    ....in announcing she would charge Wafer with second-degree murder, Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy said her office determined that Wafer “did not act in lawful self-defense.”

    Wafer’s lawyer Cheryl Carpenter argued in opening statements Wednesday morning that Wafer shot McBride out of fear. To bolster that argument with legal support, she will have two options under Michigan’s expanded self-defense laws that grew out of NRA lobbying. In addition to passing a “Stand Your Ground” law in 2006 that expands the sanctioned use of deadly force outside the home, Michigan also expanded the so-called “Castle Doctrine,” which allows deadly force to protect one’s dwelling, to include areas around the home such as a yard or porch.

    For Wafer to successfully invoke the “Castle Doctrine,” he would have to show that McBride was “in the process of breaking and entering a dwelling.” Prosecutors said there no evidence of forced entry. And the autopsy report shows McBride was not shot at close range.

    Wafer could also use the state’s Stand Your Ground law to show that he reasonably believed force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm.


    I think these laws are dangerous and empower people to act on irrational fears. Irrational fears that seem to consistently provoke them to shoot black people. IMHO, unless they consider that sector of our population dispensable these laws need to be changed in consideration of these real world outcomes.
    The man is guilty of some level of homicide or manslaughter assuming the story is correct.

    The justice system is working. So far.

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Ewer View Post
    I don't shoot innocent people in cold blood on my front porch out of a paranoid fear because I think the law says I can.
    Your attempt at projection is baseless, feeble and very poorly executed.
    FYI I happen to enjoy old west movies, but I have the ability to realize that the morals and sensibilities of that historical period no longer can, or should, apply to modern society.

    Hell, why do they need a trial at all ?

    They could just convict the guy on your opinion alone.

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    No, we didn't "get rid of cars" because all we needed to do was regulate them, just like we don't want to get rid of guns - we just need to regulate them.

    And to address your last sentence, the key isn't to press charges on the homeowner - the key is to at least try to prevent the crime from happening in the first place...which is what every other first-world democracy on the planet is doing by regulating firearms and firearm ownership...and as a direct result, ALL of them have much lower homicide rates.



    Comparing what goes on in one country to another is apples and oranges; widely differing conditions apply. England, for instance, was far less violent than the US long BEFORE they ever enacted stringent gun control.

    Canada has several times as many guns as the UK, and far less restrictive laws... but it's murder rate is comparable, barely any higher.


    Half the nations in the world have FAR higher murder rates than the US, DESPITE having far LOWER rates of private gun ownership and in many cases draconian gun control laws.


    From my research into the subject, the causes appear to be primarily poverty and wealth inequality, corrupt or inefficient government/police/courts, factions or gangs, and drug trade.

    There is also the cultural element. Some cultures are inherently more violent than others regardless of the availability of weapons.

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