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Thread: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

  1. #91
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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Yes. My life and my family come first
    I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.
    by opposing self-defense laws, you most certainly are.

    by opposing self defense laws you are blatantly saying " the aggressor/criminal/intruder/perpetrator comes first"

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Ewer View Post
    Yeah sure ... maybe he wants your rake as well... then what will you do? The leaves will bury you next fall.
    Better kill him.

    How is it my problem that he's decided that his life is worth a used leaf blower and a used rake ?

    Is anyone responsible for their actions in your world ?

    Or is it only people who own guns who are to be held responsible for their actions ?

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    by opposing self-defense laws, you most certainly are.

    by opposing self defense laws you are blatantly saying " the aggressor/criminal/intruder/perpetrator comes first"
    No one is opposing self defense laws. But those laws have to be written in a way that doesn't create a whole new class of victims
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    No one is opposing self defense laws. But those laws have to be written in a way that doesn't create a whole new class of victims
    oh ok..well, i'm glad you are on board with our current laws

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Most states (other than Texas, of course) do not allow lethal force to be used in defense of property, where the threat is ONLY to property.


    Now part of the problem here is where that line gets fuzzy. Some examples:

    Someone breaks into your home while you're in it.
    Someone tries to steal your car while you're in it.
    Someone breaks into your shed while you're in it.

    In most states, the above situations are considered self-defense rather than defending property; especially the home, in Castle Doctrine states.

    Some states, like mine, extend Castle Doctrine to cover your yard and outbuildings... within reason. Within reason means you can't shoot somebody because they're standing there twenty feet away holding very still while giving you a goofy look... there has to be some reasonable expression of threat, but the homeowner generally gets more benefit of the doubt within his home (or in states like mine, his yard or outbuildings) unless there is evidence is wasn't SD.


    Now Castle Doctrine is NOT a license to kill anyone on your property. It simply means you have no duty to retreat and that you get more benefit of the doubt if you assert there was a reasonable threat. Questionable cases end up going to trial... as this one is going to, then the jury decides whether it was or was not reasonable.


    One of the reasons I support SYG and Castle Doctrine is because threat situations can manifest very quickly, and you may have no more than a fraction of a second to make the call before it is too late to act effectively. In such a case the decision tree the armed citizen must mentally navigate in making this call needs to be fairly simple and straightforward.... not something needing a law library and a legal scholar to decipher. When homeowners fear to shoot invading criminals, crime tends to prosper, and I don't want to see that become law of the land again.


    Personally I think there should be considerable latitude in dealing with property crimes as well.

    Example:

    You see someone in your shed, stealing your stuff you worked hard for. You call 911... the police response time in your area tends to be 15-20 minutes, sometimes longer for non-deadly scenarios. The guy is loading up his truck and about to leave. Just letting him go, with your stuff you'll find very hard to replace, is hard to swallow. Confronting him is a risk, but many of us feel that protecting the integrity of our home and property is worth such a risk.

    Doing so unarmed is asking to get killed though; yet if you go out with a gun and tell him to surrender, then he does something threatening and you have to shoot him... many people here on DP would apparently call you a murderer, or claim you were in the wrong, simply because you went outside with a gun. We've had that argument before, and I think you have to come down on the side of the victim here: the property owner getting ripped off (perhaps for the nth time in many cases).

    Frankly I'm a firm believer that armed robbers should be shot on sight; and I'm not overly sympathetic to unarmed thieves that get shot in the act either. Don't want to get shot, don't steal people's stuff...

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    No one is opposing self defense laws. But those laws have to be written in a way that doesn't create a whole new class of victims




    A few incidents do not constitute "a whole new class of victims". Stuff like this happened long before SYG, you know.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    yes.. it is too much to ask.

    the idea of self defense is to NOT become a victim... not become a victim and then get your revenge after the fact

    I agree 100% with SYG and castle doctrine laws.... and i would defend myself even in their absence,
    but if you do not agree with them, simply do not defend yourself at home or outside of your home.... you are not required to defend yourself , your family,or your property.

    keep a clear conscience... be a victim.
    What kind of world are you endorsing here. One where a person can't approach a strangers house without fear of being shot dead?! Really? It's an absurd overreach.

    The problem is the way some of these laws are written and promoting the idea that they be cleaned up so that we don't just create a whole new group of victims is not the same as opposing the concept of people having the right to protect themselves against an "actual" threat
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It is distressing to have to explain something repeatedly, only to have the facts ignored yet again.

    Very well.


    No one is granted immunity to murder charges based simply on their feelings.

    There must be a perception of imminent threat of a serious nature; this perception of threat must be judged to pass the "reasonable man test" by either the prosecutor, or if it goes to trial, a jury.

    Your statement is false and hyperbole.
    The simple fact that these laws contain the wording "feel threatened" instead of "are threatened" give the level of certainty away to an emotional state and creates a fuzzy non-specific reason to kill.
    When the weight of reason is applied only to a feeling and not to solid evidence of a real threat the law panders to those who like the idea of knee-jerk shooting instead of well considered responsible defense.
    The wording matters. Any form of the word "feel" has no place in any law concerning life and death.

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    Re: Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    Homeowner Who Shot Dead A Teen Girl On His Porch Faces Murder Charges This Week | ThinkProgress

    Remember this story? From the article

    ..... latest trial to test the role of expansive self-defense laws in racially charged deaths by gunfire.

    In statements to the press, he called the shooting “justified” and “reasonable,” invoking language from Michigan’s “Shoot First” laws that allow immunity for some self-defense shootings.

    ....in announcing she would charge Wafer with second-degree murder, Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy said her office determined that Wafer “did not act in lawful self-defense.”

    Wafer’s lawyer Cheryl Carpenter argued in opening statements Wednesday morning that Wafer shot McBride out of fear. To bolster that argument with legal support, she will have two options under Michigan’s expanded self-defense laws that grew out of NRA lobbying. In addition to passing a “Stand Your Ground” law in 2006 that expands the sanctioned use of deadly force outside the home, Michigan also expanded the so-called “Castle Doctrine,” which allows deadly force to protect one’s dwelling, to include areas around the home such as a yard or porch.

    For Wafer to successfully invoke the “Castle Doctrine,” he would have to show that McBride was “in the process of breaking and entering a dwelling.” Prosecutors said there no evidence of forced entry. And the autopsy report shows McBride was not shot at close range.

    Wafer could also use the state’s Stand Your Ground law to show that he reasonably believed force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm.


    I think these laws are dangerous and empower people to act on irrational fears. Irrational fears that seem to consistently provoke them to shoot black people. IMHO, unless they consider that sector of our population dispensable these laws need to be changed in consideration of these real world outcomes.
    Stand your ground law, Trayvon Martin and a shocking legacy | Tampa Bay Times

    An intensive study of the actual cases where the stand your ground defense was used showed very clearly that blacks were much more likely in both raw numbers AND statistics to SUCCESSFULLY use the SYG laws in cases of self defense. The racism angle is just a sad, played out ploy.

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