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Thread: Resolution Directing the House sergeant-at-arms to “Arrest Lois Lerner for Contempt"

  1. #21
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    Re: Resolution Directing the House sergeant-at-arms to “Arrest Lois Lerner for Contem

    I'm no formally trained lawyer, but it strikes me as really odd that she hasn't been charged, and indicted yet? There is enough evidence, circumstantial and admitted for a grand-jury to indict Lerner now. I've seen a lot more people with a lot let evidence get indicted by Grand Juries. Of course we need Holder to actually send it to the grand jury, but something even more troublesome comes from this. Why Holder hasn't done this yet or why he isn't really investigating this is as damaging to the Admin and points to having their hands in this as much as Lerners guilt by taking the 5th. No remotely competent DOJ would have taken this long with this much evidence in their baskets to prosecute and jail anyone responsible for this crime.

    Their inaction points to complicity, and if Obama wasn't such a well-documented liar, and deceiver, I'd give him the benefit of doubt, but I don't trust this guy and his minions as far as I can throw them. HE said he would aggressively investigate this matter. HE said it for all to hear, yet we see no action from his DOJ, no FBI intervention it seems by all witness accounts, and we have stonewalling and outright purging of evidence. If this White House isn't involved I'd be really, really shocked to be honest.

    I say, if the next President is Republican, they should buck the trend of not going after previous administrations, and they should take this one, along with Bengahzi, along with NSA, along with EPA, along with Bergdahl, and really open up the books to the American people. If Obama won't be transparent, then the next President should be, and send a message to future Presidents that your little President club's secrets aren't safe, especially when criminal in nature!


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    Re: Resolution Directing the House sergeant-at-arms to “Arrest Lois Lerner for Contem

    The only reason the real evidence of what Lerner and her scumbag cohorts at the IRS did hasn't been found yet is because great lengths have been taken to ensure that it will never be found.

    The government (both parties) the banks, the wealthy....it's one big f-ing country club and the middle class need not apply. They're screwing us and there's not a damn thing we can do about it. So I, like many other Americans will cheer any attempt, no matter how ill advised or foolish to hold one of these SOB's accountable. I don't want Lois Lerner to go to jail. I want her to go to hell and I want to watch her burn.
    Last edited by DB20; 07-11-14 at 01:16 PM.

  3. #23
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    Re: Resolution Directing the House sergeant-at-arms to “Arrest Lois Lerner for Contem

    Quote Originally Posted by DB20 View Post
    Yes but the fifth amendment does not give you the right to remain silent by refusing to answer questions and then give a statement regarding your side of the story, which is exactly what Lois Lerner did when she went before Congress.

    When you assert the fifth amendment all you say is "I am asserting my fifth amendment right," or you have your lawyer say this on your behalf then you keep your mouth shut and say nothing else. That''s how the fifth amendment works. Many legal experts have stated that by speaking after asserting her fifth amendment right Lerner waived that right and there is legitimate cause to be held in contempt.
    And many more legal experts would say that's complete nonsense. What someone does outside of a trial or hearing has no bearing on their rights inside the trial or hearing. The fifth amendment does not require you to say nothing ever on a subject. It protects you from being compelled to give testimony against yourself. It very much does give you the right to remain silent by refusing to answer questions and then give whatever statements you like to whomever you like. If it's not properly introduced and subject to cross examination, I can't imagine it holding any sway in any proceeding. In a proper courtroom, as opposed to congress, the statement would be very hard to get in anyway, but it wouldn't negate fifth amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I'm no formally trained lawyer, but it strikes me as really odd that she hasn't been charged, and indicted yet?
    I am. If you were, it wouldn't strike you that way.
    Last edited by Paschendale; 07-11-14 at 01:22 PM.
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    Re: Resolution Directing the House sergeant-at-arms to “Arrest Lois Lerner for Contem

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    I would like to hear how you propose they "Get a ruling on that"?

    The reason I ask is that I don't see how a ruling could happen unless someone (I propose Lerner) is arrested for contempt despite the fact that they have asserted their 5th amendment rights. Then a judge will have the opportunity to rule. Otherwise, the opportunity to rule on it never arises. This is the way American law seems to work. You don't get rulings on things until they are attempted, generally speaking. So, I was just wondering if you had an alternate scenario within American law that could somehow be followed to obtain that ruling before she is arrested.

    She can take the 5th in order to avoid incriminating herself, but she doesn't get to take it to avoid Republican partisan attacks. Consistently, that is the excuse my fellow liberals have cited for her taking the 5th. It doesn't work that way, and it is a ridiculous partisan fall back position. We must assume she took it because she has something criminal to hide, and we must pursue that fact aggressively. We don't reduce our effort when someone takes the 5th, we intensify it. I say this as a Democrat and liberal who nevertheless believes criminal use of executive power is one of the worst affronts to democracy, and should be investigated vigorously.

    I do believe the logic of their effort to arrest her is on shaky legal ground, but I do like the principle of it. Either be silent or talk, but don't think you can have your cake and eat it too. It should be pursued.
    great post!
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    Re: Resolution Directing the House sergeant-at-arms to “Arrest Lois Lerner for Contem

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Representative Stockman should look up how contempt actually works before making such absurd demands. Contempt is absolutely not a means to circumvent the fifth amendment.
    If you testify before congress and they don't like what they hear the body my indeed hold you in contempt.

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    Re: Resolution Directing the House sergeant-at-arms to “Arrest Lois Lerner for Contem

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    And until that is decided, this is going to go nowhere. How about they actually get a ruling on THAT part, before the Republicans look even more silly with this "arresting" business.

    It's clear there hasn't been a consensus on whether she actually waived her 5th amendment rights because there are "legal experts" that have said she hasn't waived them and there are those that have said she has. Without that being decided by courts, the GOP are just spinning their wheels.

    No, that's not how it works. Congress can hold her in contempt for as long as they wish and can indeed arrest and jail her.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_Congress
    Last edited by clownboy; 07-11-14 at 01:30 PM.

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    Re: Resolution Directing the House sergeant-at-arms to “Arrest Lois Lerner for Contem

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    No, that's not how it works. Congress can hold her in contempt for as long as they wish and can indeed arrest and jail her.
    Well, there is the authorization for indefinite detention without trial now. They could claim she was a terrorist.

    She took the fifth, meaning that testimony would tend to incriminate her. What else do we need to know that the IRS was guilty of targeting individuals?

    So, fire her and hire someone with the understanding that they're to clean up the mess. If they don't, fire them.

    Isn't that what would happen if the CEO of a private company were to be in a similar position? Of course, he'd get a golden parachute, as that's how CEOs are treated, but that's another issue.
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    Re: Resolution Directing the House sergeant-at-arms to “Arrest Lois Lerner for Contem

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And many more legal experts would say that's complete nonsense. What someone does outside of a trial or hearing has no bearing on their rights inside the trial or hearing. The fifth amendment does not require you to say nothing ever on a subject. It protects you from being compelled to give testimony against yourself. It very much does give you the right to remain silent by refusing to answer questions and then give whatever statements you like to whomever you like. If it's not properly introduced and subject to cross examination, I can't imagine it holding any sway in any proceeding. In a proper courtroom, as opposed to congress, the statement would be very hard to get in anyway, but it wouldn't negate fifth amendment rights.



    I am. If you were, it wouldn't strike you that way.
    So, is your position that the only way to force her to answer is to give her broad immunity?
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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    Re: Resolution Directing the House sergeant-at-arms to “Arrest Lois Lerner for Contem

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And many more legal experts would say that's complete nonsense. What someone does outside of a trial or hearing has no bearing on their rights inside the trial or hearing. The fifth amendment does not require you to say nothing ever on a subject. It protects you from being compelled to give testimony against yourself. It very much does give you the right to remain silent by refusing to answer questions and then give whatever statements you like to whomever you like. If it's not properly introduced and subject to cross examination, I can't imagine it holding any sway in any proceeding. In a proper courtroom, as opposed to congress, the statement would be very hard to get in anyway, but it wouldn't negate fifth amendment rights.
    Except that Lerner did both assert her fifth amendment and give a statement during a Congressional hearing.

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    Re: Resolution Directing the House sergeant-at-arms to “Arrest Lois Lerner for Contem

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Well, there is the authorization for indefinite detention without trial now. They could claim she was a terrorist.

    She took the fifth, meaning that testimony would tend to incriminate her. What else do we need to know that the IRS was guilty of targeting individuals?

    So, fire her and hire someone with the understanding that they're to clean up the mess. If they don't, fire them.

    Isn't that what would happen if the CEO of a private company were to be in a similar position? Of course, he'd get a golden parachute, as that's how CEOs are treated, but that's another issue.

    What if the CEO broke the law ? What if the CEO was E-mailing other CEO's so they could conspire against a group of people because they refused to buy their products ??

    Fire Lois Lerner ? No, indict her and put her in prison for the rest of her natural life.
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