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Thread: Border Meltdown: Obama Delivering 290,000 Illegals To U.S. Homes

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    Re: Border Meltdown: Obama Delivering 290,000 Illegals To U.S. Homes

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    My pointing out their hypocrisy is not an argument. It is an observation
    Well, since you're lecturing me on topicness I'm going to assume your "observation" was topical, and thus it was "observing" the quality or legitimacy or what ever you want to wiggle around and say of the argument being made....which is the same as what I was doing.

    My argument is based on the law which I have linked to several times.
    And which you've repeatedly ignored applies to TRAFFICKING VICTIMS, of which these children to no qualify as there was no force or coercion that caused them to enter this country, unless ones argument is that ANYTIME a child is brought into this country they are a trafficking victim.

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    Re: Border Meltdown: Obama Delivering 290,000 Illegals To U.S. Homes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    If I didn't know any better, I'd say their default position is "anything Obama does is automatically bad." But that can't be it.
    If the current administration immediately sealed off the border and began deporting these children, the same conservatives who are complaining now would be bitching about Obama's strong arm tactics and how much he hates these poor children.

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    Re: Border Meltdown: Obama Delivering 290,000 Illegals To U.S. Homes

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Yeah, but who keeps going on about how he needs to follow the law? Should he only follow the laws that you want him to follow?
    Did you miss the start of this back and forth. This was already acknowledged. The question of "should he only follow the laws that you want him to follow" could be asked of both sides. For example, IN THIS THREAD, we have people on the left going on about how he needs to follow the law. Thus my point.

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    Re: Border Meltdown: Obama Delivering 290,000 Illegals To U.S. Homes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Not an expert on immigration laws so can't spout them verbotem off the hip. I was responding to an affirmative claim that they would fall under a specific law. Care to address my argument, or just going to try to divert and act as if that somehow counters what I stated?
    I would not have thought that referencing the US Code for the legal definition of trafficking as a diversion.

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    Re: Border Meltdown: Obama Delivering 290,000 Illegals To U.S. Homes

    Quote Originally Posted by 29A View Post
    I would not have thought that referencing the US Code for the legal definition of trafficking as a diversion.
    My apologies. Your statement and your quoted material did not relate clearly to each other, as one was asking me for something and the other just was a splat of information with no context. Looking it over now that you've actually decided to be clearer...

    There is no indication that all these children were being abused, or threatened to be abused, of the legal process.

    Note, words and how they're used have meanings. The suggestion is not that they will be subject to an abusive legal process, but rather an abuse of the legal process.

    Just because the legal process in their home countries may be problematic does not prove or demonstrate that these children were in any way subject to an abuse OF those legal systems or the threat of such.

    Again, if the simple notion of a child "being made" to leave the country because it may be dangerous to stay in that country in a general sense indicates "coercion" leading to illegal trafficking then every illegal immigrant who has brought their children in with them...instead of just sending them....in an effort to escape potential "violence" is engaging in human trafficking as they are "coercing" their children to come with them to avoid danger.

    If the notion that a child being made to enter the US because their homeland may not be safe and they or their parents may be subject to "serious harm" if they don't is automatically a "trafficking victim" and "that's the law" and Obama "must follow the law"...then we "must follow the law" as it relates to the plethora of human traffickers throughout this country here illegally who "coerced" their children into coming across the boarder to escape potential "serious harm".

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    Re: Border Meltdown: Obama Delivering 290,000 Illegals To U.S. Homes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Did you miss the start of this back and forth. This was already acknowledged. The question of "should he only follow the laws that you want him to follow" could be asked of both sides. For example, IN THIS THREAD, we have people on the left going on about how he needs to follow the law. Thus my point.
    I'd rather see him follow all the laws. I'm not interested in the "you're a hypocrite" accusations flying. If you want to see him follow the law, it should be all of them, not just the ones you like.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Border Meltdown: Obama Delivering 290,000 Illegals To U.S. Homes

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    I'd rather see him follow all the laws. I'm not interested in the "you're a hypocrite" accusations flying. If you want to see him follow the law, it should be all of them, not just the ones you like.
    Completely understandable. In an instance like this with politics, while I'm not a fan of hypocrisy, I understand why the hypocrisy on both sides exist and am not massively bothered by it. What I am bothered by is either side attempting to shout down the other with cries of "hyporcrisy" on such an issue where both sides are rife with it throughout them. So in a similar vein to your "Follow the law, follow all the laws" notion...mine is basically "be a hypocrite about it, just don't complain about other people being a hypocrite about it".

    It's like a fan of a team whose clearly a homer saying someone elses argument is invalid, or "observing" their comment in a negative manner, because they're just a homer.

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    Re: Border Meltdown: Obama Delivering 290,000 Illegals To U.S. Homes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Well, it's cute that you claim that but can you articulate exactly how they're "trafficking victims"?



    Oh, I thought this would be your desperate attempt to claim this both highlighting your desire to avoid debating this in an intellectually honest way, your desperate attempt to be dishonest and misrepresentative, and your disdain for actually engaging with anyone who disagrees with you as evidenced by you not bothering to actually review my sources.



    There's no indication these children crossed the border against their will, nor any indication that the parent tricked them by "lying" or "supressing the truth". There was no force nor coercion here as it relates to the law. Do you have some evidence as to where the children were made to cross against their will or via "lying" or "supression of the truth"?

    The ONLY possible argument you could claim is that because there was the potential for violence in their homeland, that indicates "coercion" to send them away from it. Then again, using your logic, every illegal alien that enters this country due to "violence" and brings thier child along is "forcing" and "coercing" them to come along. In which case...if you want to go that route, fine; we can begin to round up all these felony offenders wherever we can find them in this country.
    Your beliefs about what trafficking is are contrary to the law, as I have repeatedly shown.

    Again, here is what the law says about handling unaccompanied alien children

    U.S.C. Title 8 - ALIENS AND NATIONALITY

    (2) Safe and secure placements
    Subject to section 279(b)(2) of title 6, an unaccompanied alien child in the custody of the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall be promptly placed in the least restrictive setting that is in the best interest of the child. In making such placements, the Secretary may consider danger to self, danger to the community, and risk of flight. Placement of child trafficking victims may include placement in an Unaccompanied Refugee Minor program, pursuant to section 412(d) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1522(d)), if a suitable family member is not available to provide care. A child shall not be placed in a secure facility absent a determination that the child poses a danger to self or others or has been charged with having committed a criminal offense. The placement of a child in a secure facility shall be reviewed, at a minimum, on a monthly basis, in accordance with procedures prescribed by the Secretary, to determine if such placement remains warranted.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Border Meltdown: Obama Delivering 290,000 Illegals To U.S. Homes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Well, since you're lecturing me on topicness I'm going to assume your "observation" was topical, and thus it was "observing" the quality or legitimacy or what ever you want to wiggle around and say of the argument being made....which is the same as what I was doing.



    And which you've repeatedly ignored applies to TRAFFICKING VICTIMS, of which these children to no qualify as there was no force or coercion that caused them to enter this country, unless ones argument is that ANYTIME a child is brought into this country they are a trafficking victim.
    (2) Safe and secure placements
    Subject to section 279(b)(2) of title 6, an unaccompanied alien child in the custody of the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall be promptly placed in the least restrictive setting that is in the best interest of the child. In making such placements, the Secretary may consider danger to self, danger to the community, and risk of flight. Placement of child trafficking victims may include placement in an Unaccompanied Refugee Minor program, pursuant to section 412(d) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1522(d)), if a suitable family member is not available to provide care. A child shall not be placed in a secure facility absent a determination that the child poses a danger to self or others or has been charged with having committed a criminal offense. The placement of a child in a secure facility shall be reviewed, at a minimum, on a monthly basis, in accordance with procedures prescribed by the Secretary, to determine if such placement remains warranted.
    Please note how the text distinguishes between "unaccompanied alien child" and "child trafficking victim"

    The law applies to all unaccompanied alien children. The title doesn't change the text
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Border Meltdown: Obama Delivering 290,000 Illegals To U.S. Homes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Did you miss the start of this back and forth. This was already acknowledged. The question of "should he only follow the laws that you want him to follow" could be asked of both sides. For example, IN THIS THREAD, we have people on the left going on about how he needs to follow the law. Thus my point.
    I'm sure you realize that two wrongs don't make a right.

    If you want to criticize some leftist for hypocrisy in this thread, then find a post in this thread which contains some.

    Good luck
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Note, words and how they're used have meanings.
    I suggest you do that same. Here's the text
    Subject to section 279(b)(2) of title 6, an unaccompanied alien child in the custody of the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall be promptly placed in the least restrictive setting that is in the best interest of the child. In making such placements, the Secretary may consider danger to self, danger to the community, and risk of flight.
    Please note that the text refers to "unaccompanied alien child" and not "child victim of trafficking"

    Bills frequently include provisions that are not directly related to the issue that is named in its' title. For example, this bill also contains provisions that alter the Violence Against Women Act
    Last edited by sangha; 07-09-14 at 12:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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