Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 51

Thread: Teacher allegedly disciplined because her students' scores are too high

  1. #11
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Teacher allegedly disciplined because her students' scores are too high

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes, that's true but the motive behind punishing the good teacher is the policy of punishing the bad teachers and schools. Particularly the latter.
    Actually, taken at face value, it seems the motive behind the punishing of the good teacher is attempting to CIRCUMVENT the policy of punishing bad teachers and schools. At best that's a negative on the part of those trying to circumvent the policy, at worst it's an indictment that the methodology of the policy if flawed. But in no way is it an indication that taking action against BAD teachers is somehow bad which seems to be your implication here.

    I mean, seriously...what are you arguing? That poor performing people will act unethically to attempt to hide their per performance is proof that we shouldn't attempt to decentivize poor performance?

    There's no reason to suggest this would be any different if it was a policy focusing on positive re-enforcement instead negative. Instead of punishing a teacher for doing well, which "causes" another to be punished for doing worse...it'd instead punish a teacher for doing well, which "causes" another to not be rewarded for doing better.

  2. #12
    Dungeon Master
    anti socialist

    X Factor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Texas Proud
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 12:48 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    44,727

    Re: Teacher allegedly disciplined because her students' scores are too high

    There has to be more to this.
    The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mahatma Gandhi


  3. #13
    Sage
    sangha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lower Hudson Valley, NY
    Last Seen
    09-17-17 @ 05:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    59,990

    Re: Teacher allegedly disciplined because her students' scores are too high

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Actually, taken at face value, it seems the motive behind the punishing of the good teacher is attempting to CIRCUMVENT the policy of punishing bad teachers and schools.
    That's what I was saying. But they wouldn't have a motive of trying to circumvent their punishment if poor performing schools and teachers weren't punished.

    At best that's a negative on the part of those trying to circumvent the policy, at worst it's an indictment that the methodology of the policy if flawed. But in no way is it an indication that taking action against BAD teachers is somehow bad which seems to be your implication here.
    It is if there is not "methodology" (I prefer the term "implementation") can guarantee against these kinds of circumventions. I don't think there is such an implementation, because we've seen this sort of thing before with "high stakes testing", which is profoundly entwined with this policy. It has encouraged some teachers, and schools, to tell their students the questions and the answers before the test.

    I mean, seriously...what are you arguing? That poor performing people will act unethically to attempt to hide their per performance is proof that we shouldn't attempt to decentivize poor performance?

    There's no reason to suggest this would be any different if it was a policy focusing on positive re-enforcement instead negative. Instead of punishing a teacher for doing well, which "causes" another to be punished for doing worse...it'd instead punish a teacher for doing well, which "causes" another to not be rewarded for doing better.
    I would suggest that we not punish poorly performing teachers and schools, but instead ensure they have adequate resources and assistance from their better performing colleagues.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  4. #14
    Educator voyager1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Atlanta
    Last Seen
    05-23-16 @ 12:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    974

    Re: Teacher allegedly disciplined because her students' scores are too high

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    There has to be more to this.
    There is, she probably ticked off someone above her.

  5. #15
    Sage
    Dittohead not!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The Golden State
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    41,580

    Re: Teacher allegedly disciplined because her students' scores are too high

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    If this is true...
    Sounds to me like an allegation of cheating on the test, as opposed to doing too good of a job of teaching.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  6. #16
    Sage
    Slyfox696's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    7,986

    Re: Teacher allegedly disciplined because her students' scores are too high

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Sounds to me like an allegation of cheating on the test, as opposed to doing too good of a job of teaching.
    Exactly what I thought.

  7. #17
    Preserve Protect Defend
    Beaudreaux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Covfefe, NC
    Last Seen
    12-14-17 @ 05:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    15,566

    Re: Teacher allegedly disciplined because her students' scores are too high

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Just to be clear, I didn't say it was the kids fault. Obviously, there's blame to go around (teachers, administrators, etc) but not to the kids.

    My point is that simple sounding solutions to complex problems often have unintended consequences.

    If a school is having problems, the last thing that should be done is to cut their funding. We're the only industrialized nation that does that. In other developed nations, schools with problems get extra help, not extra punishment.
    It isn't the industrialized nation of the United States of America, but rather that Democratic paradise called New York State that will cut their funding; according to the story: "New York State Education Department's performance rating system is designed to reward instructors and schools when students show academic improvement from one grade to the next..."

    I don't disagree, and in fact fully agree with you, that the school shouldn't suffer by having their funds cut, and by extension, hurting the kids. What should happen, is the poorly performing teachers should either be given remedial training to improve their performance, or be released from duty, or both if the remedial training is not successful.

    I have no proof from the OP article, however, I would hazard to guess that these teachers are part of a teachers union, and that the union and tenure are preventing the school from the release of poorly performing teachers.

    Teachers, like every other employee of any employer, should have a realistic evaluation process to gauge their performance. It would appear, that one of the evaluation processes that could be used, is exactly what the state of NY is doing - see if the students improve or at least maintain their performance level from one grade to another. However, again, it should be the teachers not the students that should be on the receiving end of any punitive actions. And, reducing the funding to the students education in this or any other school is in fact punitive to the students, while the teachers that do badly keep their jobs and the one(s) that excel receive punitive actions by the school.

    It's bass-ackwards.

    We should not be concerned with protecting funding or poorly performing teachers (which was the take-away from this story) but rather be solely concerned with teaching the kids in a way in which they actually learn and excel. The teacher in the OP article has shown that she is a highly capable teacher that not only cares about her job and her students, but also is able to get kids in a very poor neighborhood to perform above and beyond the standards.

    I know this area. I spent many months working in the Rockaways. They were ground zero for Hurricane Sandy's NY landfall. East Rockaway adjoins Nassau County on the south shore of Long Island, in the Borough of Queens, New York. That area is lower middle class to lower class and a poverty ridden area. This teacher has shown, IMHO, that kids can overcome their environment and rise up and out of their current conditions. She should be teaching the other teachers how she did it, not being demoted and then fired.

    Again, it's just bass-ackwards.
    Last edited by Beaudreaux; 07-03-14 at 06:30 PM.

  8. #18
    Preserve Protect Defend
    Beaudreaux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Covfefe, NC
    Last Seen
    12-14-17 @ 05:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    15,566

    Re: Teacher allegedly disciplined because her students' scores are too high

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Sounds to me like an allegation of cheating on the test, as opposed to doing too good of a job of teaching.
    May be, but there's no evidence whatsoever of that. From the attorney for the teacher fired, it had to do with her not complying with her instruction to lower the scores of her students (insubordination).

    Again, there's no evidence to point to anything else.

    I do wish that either me or someone else could find another article about this so we could read another perspective.

  9. #19
    Sage
    sangha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lower Hudson Valley, NY
    Last Seen
    09-17-17 @ 05:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    59,990

    Re: Teacher allegedly disciplined because her students' scores are too high

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    It isn't the industrialized nation of the United States of America, but rather that Democratic paradise called New York State that will cut their funding; according to the story: "New York State Education Department's performance rating system is designed to reward instructors and schools when students show academic improvement from one grade to the next..."

    I don't disagree, and in fact fully agree with you, that the school shouldn't suffer by having their funds cut, and by extension, hurting the kids. What should happen, is the poorly performing teachers should either be given remedial training to improve their performance, or be released from duty, or both if the remedial training is not successful.

    I have no proof from the OP article, however, I would hazard to guess that these teachers are part of teachers union, and that the union and tenure are preventing the school from the release of poorly performing teachers.

    Teachers, like every other employee of any employer, should have a realistic evaluation process to gauge their performance. It would appear, that one of the evaluation processes that could be used, is exactly what the state of NY is doing - see if the students improve or at least maintain their performance level. However, again, it should be the teachers not the students that should be on the receiving end of any punitive actions. And, reducing the funding to the students education in this or any other school is in fact punitive to the students, while the teachers that do badly keep their jobs and the one(s) that excel receive punitive actions by the school.

    It's bass-ackwards.

    We should not be concerned with protecting funding or poorly performing teachers (which was the take-away from this story) but rather be solely concerned with teaching the kids in a way in which they actually learn and excel. The teacher in the OP article has shown that she is a highly capable teacher that not only cares about her job and her students, but also is able to get kids in a very poor neighborhood to perform above and beyond the standards.

    I know this area. I spent many months working in the Rockaways. They were ground zero for Hurricane Sandy's NY landfall. East Rockaway adjoins Nassau County on the south shore of Long Island, in the Borough of Queens, New York. That area is lower middle class to lower class poverty ridden area. This teacher has shown, IMHO, that kids can overcome their environment and rise up and out of their current conditions. She should be teaching the other teachers how she did it, not being demoted than then fired.

    Again, it's just bass-ackwards.
    My mom worked in the schools system (not as a teacher) and was childhood friends with Sandra Feldman, who went on to lead the UFT. I grew up around teachers.

    An extremely large portion of the bad teachers do not need to be removed. They do it themselves. It's a tough job, even for someone who is committed to the kids. For someone who isn't, it's absolute hell. I'm not saying there aren't any bad teachers. I've had one or two myself. However, I don't think that's what lies at the core of the problems our educational system has. In addition, I think the problems are overstated and sensationalized. IMO, a large majority of the schools do a pretty good job. The problem is that we have a sizeable minority of schools that are doing an abysmally horrible job, and they tend to be the ones that serve lower-income populations
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #20
    Sage
    Dittohead not!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The Golden State
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    41,580

    Re: Teacher allegedly disciplined because her students' scores are too high

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    May be, but there's no evidence whatsoever of that. From the attorney for the teacher fired, it had to do with her not complying with her instruction to lower the scores of her students (insubordination).

    Again, there's no evidence to point to anything else.

    I do wish that either me or someone else could find another article about this so we could read another perspective.
    This is one of the stories you look at and say, no, can't be. There has to be more to the story than that. No one is fired for doing too good of a job, but they are fired for cheating.

    Well, farmers sometimes are punished for doing too good of a job when they create an over production of something and lower the price so that profits vanish. I've seen that happen around here, but that's another story.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •