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Thread: Report: Canada Pulls Plug on Keystone Pipeline – Will Send Oil to Asia

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    Re: Report: Canada Pulls Plug on Keystone Pipeline – Will Send Oil to Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Well, you're simply wrong because Nebraska did approve the initial route, the Obama administration delayed the decision, an election was held in Nebraska where the route was an issue and Trans Canada Pipelines and the Nebraska government agreed to revisit and change the route, which they did, and the Nebraska government again approved the route. While Obama was playing with his March Madness picks and polishing his golf balls, environmental activists took the Nebraska government to court over a procedural technicality and a court agreed that it should be sent back to the legislature for review.
    So, there is STILL no approved route through Nebraska. That was my point.

    Now, your US Supreme Court can be highly political but I've yet to see any comments that imply the Nebraska State Supreme Court is also ideological and political. The delays in process can all be laid at the feet of Obama and his administration for crash political reasons - he wanted/wants neither to upset the environmentalist and billionaire eco-nuts who largely funded his two elections nor his friends in the construction and oil patch unions. Obama has had numerous opportunities to approve the project - his State Department has approved it I believe three times after reviews and he's sat on his ass - so it's pretty rich now to blame a court in Nebraska for the project not being approved and to, by extension, try to blame that on Republicans.
    First of all, there is crass politics being played on both sides. For the life of me I can't understand why right wingers in the U.S. are so concerned about a pipeline that will be built by a foreign company to ship foreign oil to the Gulf coast for the filthy refining job to be shipped to overseas markets. It's perhaps an interesting side issue, but our House of Representatives has reacted as if carrying water for Keystone and the oil companies in Canada is at the top of their list of things to do for the U.S. It makes no sense. As a Canadian, I guess I understand your concern, but see no reason why a U.S. political system should hop when Canadians say 'jump' or why anyone on this side of the border not directly affected, roughly 99.99% of the U.S., has more than a passing interest.

    As for climate scientists being on Obama and the environmentalist's side as it relates to Keystone, that's just utter nonsense. Even those who believe deeply in AGW unanimously agree that transporting oil over pipelines is better for the environment than transporting it over train, truck, or tanker. In addition, the effects on the environment related to the oilsands are miniscule in relation to the 40% of energy the US gets from coal fired electricity and the obscene 80-90% that India and China produce out of their coal fired electricity plants, fueled primarily by Obama's 50% increase in the production and export of US coal.
    First of all, as I said, I mostly agree with you that the pipeline will have little effect - you quoted me saying the oil is coming out of the ground one way or another. But the fact is the captured carbon in the oil sands IS significant in relation to the big picture. It's not the only problem, but there is no ONE step that if taken will all by itself address the problems of carbon and climate change, if carbon is a serious threat. So saying about each source of carbon, THAT one by itself if addressed will not solve the issue, is just a convenient way to throw up one's hands and say let's do nothing at all.

    You can dance around and thump your chest all you want about this being about the environment, but we all know that's just nonsense.
    I haven't been dancing around or thumping my chest on this issue at all. You brought up the issue, and I addressed it rationally and calmly, even agreeing with much of your point about AGW and the oil sands.

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    Re: Report: Canada Pulls Plug on Keystone Pipeline – Will Send Oil to Asia

    Add to this ISIS will most likely take over the majority of oil in the Middle East if not stopped.

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    Re: Report: Canada Pulls Plug on Keystone Pipeline – Will Send Oil to Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So, there is STILL no approved route through Nebraska. That was my point.



    First of all, there is crass politics being played on both sides. For the life of me I can't understand why right wingers in the U.S. are so concerned about a pipeline that will be built by a foreign company to ship foreign oil to the Gulf coast for the filthy refining job to be shipped to overseas markets. It's perhaps an interesting side issue, but our House of Representatives has reacted as if carrying water for Keystone and the oil companies in Canada is at the top of their list of things to do for the U.S. It makes no sense. As a Canadian, I guess I understand your concern, but see no reason why a U.S. political system should hop when Canadians say 'jump' or why anyone on this side of the border not directly affected, roughly 99.99% of the U.S., has more than a passing interest.



    First of all, as I said, I mostly agree with you that the pipeline will have little effect - you quoted me saying the oil is coming out of the ground one way or another. But the fact is the captured carbon in the oil sands IS significant in relation to the big picture. It's not the only problem, but there is no ONE step that if taken will all by itself address the problems of carbon and climate change, if carbon is a serious threat. So saying about each source of carbon, THAT one by itself if addressed will not solve the issue, is just a convenient way to throw up one's hands and say let's do nothing at all.



    I haven't been dancing around or thumping my chest on this issue at all. You brought up the issue, and I addressed it rationally and calmly, even agreeing with much of your point about AGW and the oil sands.

    A few points:

    1. I didn't bring up the issue - someone else created the OP - I simply offered a clarification and a rebuttal to the contention that either Canada controls the pipeline project or that Canada could or did pull the plug on it.

    2. I'm not concerned about the pipeline - I've said on several threads on the issue that the dithering of Obama has pushed Canada into expediting approvals for east-west pipelines to get the oil to Canadian refineries in Atlantic Canada and to western ports for tanker shipment to Asian refineries. By doing so, they keep most of the high paying jobs in Canada and revitalize our east coast refineries.

    3. Refinery jobs may be "filthy" but the pay in the field is in the upper middle class brackets and the families and businesses in the American gulf coast region who rely on the business, as well as communities who depend on the spending power of those families and businesses don't consider their work to be "filthy". They consider it honest, hard work and are paid well accordingly.

    4. As said previously, not all of the oil that would flow through this pipeline comes from the Canadian oilsands. It's why this "foreign" pipeline company got approvals from the Obama administration to go ahead and build the southern portions of the project, I believe from Oklahoma to Texas. The more northern portions of the pipeline will transport not only crude from Canada but will also transport refined product from midwest American refineries that are now transporting American refined oil primarily by train or stranded in the midwest where prices are accordingly low. The lack of access to larger American market as well as world markets reduces the economic viability of these American jobs - by approving the pipeline and the enhanced flow of American product, these American centers become more secure.

    5. Obama wants Canada to institute a carbon tax, similar to ones that have economically crippled parts of Europe as a condition of approving the pipeline even though Obama has been unwilling or unable to get a carbon tax approved in the US. The US is exponentially more polluting and damaging to the environment than Canada would or could ever be and yet he wants Canada to cripple its economy so he can play political games in Washington. Carbon tax schemes are complete frauds, just as most renewable energy projects. They provide no solution to a questionable problem and do nothing but make political cronies of the left into billionaires at the expense of the population. It's why so many American billionaires are funding opposition to Keystone and funding Obama politically.

    Obama may be able to delay progress at this point, but he'd have more respect in Canada and perhaps other parts of the US if he spoke solely to the economic issues and not hypocritically about the non-existent environmental issues involved.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Report: Canada Pulls Plug on Keystone Pipeline – Will Send Oil to Asia

    The Tar Sands pits in Alberta are one of the biggest environmental catastrophes in the world, if not the worst. They can be seen from outerspace like big holes in Canada. Native Americans in the region are all getting cancer from exposure to this "bitumen". Also they are culling endangered wolves in the area.

    And most importlantly, none of these people can safely transport this stuff, because they arent refining it in Canada. Its being sent as Tar Sand, which is very caustic and has to be transported through pipelines more rapidly than oil. The fact that these companies cut corners and use old pipelines that are prone to rupture after high speeding, caustic tar sand is flying though them makes it an unreliable idea.

    If you seriously check it out, they have spilled so much in the USA already and its harder to clean up than oil, if not impossible.

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    Re: Report: Canada Pulls Plug on Keystone Pipeline – Will Send Oil to Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    A few points:

    1. I didn't bring up the issue - someone else created the OP - I simply offered a clarification and a rebuttal to the contention that either Canada controls the pipeline project or that Canada could or did pull the plug on it.
    You blamed the entire delay on Obama, and that's an incomplete picture of what's happening to that northern section, which relies on an approved route through Nebraska, which has not happened.

    2. I'm not concerned about the pipeline - I've said on several threads on the issue that the dithering of Obama has pushed Canada into expediting approvals for east-west pipelines to get the oil to Canadian refineries in Atlantic Canada and to western ports for tanker shipment to Asian refineries. By doing so, they keep most of the high paying jobs in Canada and revitalize our east coast refineries.
    As a Canadian, I'd think you'd like that result.

    3. Refinery jobs may be "filthy" but the pay in the field is in the upper middle class brackets and the families and businesses in the American gulf coast region who rely on the business, as well as communities who depend on the spending power of those families and businesses don't consider their work to be "filthy". They consider it honest, hard work and are paid well accordingly.
    I agree, any jobs are good jobs. Texas communities where those refineries are located probably care a great deal about this issue, as do the owners of the refineries, and the people in Canada who will fetch a higher price per barrel of oil, and can ship oil more cheaply to Texas. The point was the effect is VERY geographically limited.

    4. As said previously, not all of the oil that would flow through this pipeline comes from the Canadian oilsands. It's why this "foreign" pipeline company got approvals from the Obama administration to go ahead and build the southern portions of the project, I believe from Oklahoma to Texas. The more northern portions of the pipeline will transport not only crude from Canada but will also transport refined product from midwest American refineries that are now transporting American refined oil primarily by train or stranded in the midwest where prices are accordingly low. The lack of access to larger American market as well as world markets reduces the economic viability of these American jobs - by approving the pipeline and the enhanced flow of American product, these American centers become more secure.
    I don't believe Obama had to approve state pipelines.

    5. Obama wants Canada to institute a carbon tax, similar to ones that have economically crippled parts of Europe as a condition of approving the pipeline even though Obama has been unwilling or unable to get a carbon tax approved in the US. The US is exponentially more polluting and damaging to the environment than Canada would or could ever be and yet he wants Canada to cripple its economy so he can play political games in Washington. Carbon tax schemes are complete frauds, just as most renewable energy projects. They provide no solution to a questionable problem and do nothing but make political cronies of the left into billionaires at the expense of the population. It's why so many American billionaires are funding opposition to Keystone and funding Obama politically.
    I get that if you don't believe AGW is an issue that you'd oppose carbon taxes and alternative energy, and support subsidies for fossil fuels, but that doesn't make carbon taxes or renewable energy projects 'frauds.' And I've never seen anything to indicate Obama is tying a Canadian carbon tax to approval. I found this article which says that notion is just false.

    Ready for Justin's carbon tax? | LEVANT | Columnists | Opinion | Toronto Sun

    Obama may be able to delay progress at this point, but he'd have more respect in Canada and perhaps other parts of the US if he spoke solely to the economic issues and not hypocritically about the non-existent environmental issues involved.
    I don't need to repeat myself, but the notion that the environmental issues are 'non-existent' just isn't shared by scientists, or frankly those worried about toxic sludge piped across the U.S. given the long history of pipeline failures, and that the oil sands product is particularly corrosive. Nebraska's concerns have been about the latter, which is why the pipeline now will avoid the aquifer.

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    Re: Report: Canada Pulls Plug on Keystone Pipeline – Will Send Oil to Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You blamed the entire delay on Obama, and that's an incomplete picture of what's happening to that northern section, which relies on an approved route through Nebraska, which has not happened.

    I don't believe Obama had to approve state pipelines.
    I'll just comment on these two parts.

    1. The entire delay can be blamed solely on Obama because all parties had approvals for the original route, including federal departments in Obama's administration, and he refused to make a decision on it for political reasons. Everything that's followed is a direct result of that dithering. Can't be denied.

    2. I'm not aware of any project, at least not one involving Trans Canada Pipelines, the proponent in Keystone, that involves simple state to state pipelines being built. The entire project spans several states and because it's all one project, crossing an international border, it requires Presidential approval. I have no knowledge that TCP is interested in building small pieces all over the place.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Report: Canada Pulls Plug on Keystone Pipeline – Will Send Oil to Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by michijo View Post
    The Tar Sands pits in Alberta are one of the biggest environmental catastrophes in the world, if not the worst. They can be seen from outerspace like big holes in Canada. Native Americans in the region are all getting cancer from exposure to this "bitumen". Also they are culling endangered wolves in the area.

    And most importlantly, none of these people can safely transport this stuff, because they arent refining it in Canada. Its being sent as Tar Sand, which is very caustic and has to be transported through pipelines more rapidly than oil. The fact that these companies cut corners and use old pipelines that are prone to rupture after high speeding, caustic tar sand is flying though them makes it an unreliable idea.

    If you seriously check it out, they have spilled so much in the USA already and its harder to clean up than oil, if not impossible.
    I'm sure Trans Canada Pipelines, a leader in the field, will be interested in your libelous statements.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Report: Canada Pulls Plug on Keystone Pipeline – Will Send Oil to Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Canada pulls the plug on the U.S. Keystone Pipeline – will send oil to Asia | Watts Up With That?

    Obama’s inability to make a decision on Keystone has finally yielded a result – Canada has made the decision for him.

    Breitbart reports Canada has just approved the Enbridge Northern Gateway Project – a major pipeline to ship Canadian oil to Asia.

    The Canadian oil will still be burnt – in Asia, instead of America.

    All the jobs and energy security which Canadian oil could have delivered to America, will instead be delivered to Asia


    Way to go Barry.
    Part of the original purpose of the pipeline was to get the oil to refineries near a port where it could be shipped abroad.

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    Re: Report: Canada Pulls Plug on Keystone Pipeline – Will Send Oil to Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I'll just comment on these two parts.

    1. The entire delay can be blamed solely on Obama because all parties had approvals for the original route, including federal departments in Obama's administration, and he refused to make a decision on it for political reasons. Everything that's followed is a direct result of that dithering. Can't be denied.
    Yeah, it can be denied because Nebraska still hasn't approved any route through their state. Here's a 2012 article about opposition in Nebraska, pointing out that red state UNANIMOUSLY turned down the original route over the aquifer and through the Sand Hills. Keystone XL pipeline crosses political boundaries in Nebraska and beyond - The Washington Post

    2. I'm not aware of any project, at least not one involving Trans Canada Pipelines, the proponent in Keystone, that involves simple state to state pipelines being built. The entire project spans several states and because it's all one project, crossing an international border, it requires Presidential approval. I have no knowledge that TCP is interested in building small pieces all over the place.
    You could be right, but I didn't think the interior part needed approval more than the ordinary permits required for any pipeline. The sticking point as I've understood it was the crossing of the border between Canada and the U.S. which can't occur without signoff by Obama's people.

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    Re: Report: Canada Pulls Plug on Keystone Pipeline – Will Send Oil to Asia

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I'm sure Trans Canada Pipelines, a leader in the field, will be interested in your libelous statements.


    Link to proof that anything michijo said is libelous?

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