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TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘promiscu

Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

AJiveMan said:
How many more times do people need to hear this kind of crap before they stop blaming the victim?
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They're likely do this again and again and again. Attack the credability of the other person is a tired and true low ball effort for the legal profession, and not just in rape cases. This is one of the pitfalls of a legal system where people are innocent until proven guilty and who are guaranteed a fair trial under the law. You're rarely going to have people just walking up and going "GUILTY" outside of plea deals, which means lawyers will always try to be finding SOME method of attempting to win the case. Even if the best case scenario is unlikely to succeed 99% of the times, that 1% chance is still viewed as worth it compared to the 100% chance of being found guilty if you plead guilty.

The question isn't when this will stop happening in the legal profession in this fashion. That's a question that basically has no purpose OTHER than to assure that those who make their political hay off this issue will always be able to beat the drum. The question is whether society, by and large, views these kind of defenses as laughable and illegitimate. And, by and large, that is the case.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Zyphlin said:
Your links are all well and good...if I was suggesting somehow that "rape culture" doesn't exist. I haven't indicated my thoughts either way on this.

My comments, and your responses, has been regarding my claims of your attempt to drag this into a "gender war" issue when the far simpler answer is that this isn't motivated by some notion of "rape culture" or anything of the sorts....it's motivated by wanting to try and put forward a defense becuase the person doens't want to plead guilty, and they have little better options than to pull this tired old card.

Posting links trying to back up the notion that there is "rape cultuer" doesn't counter my suggestion that you're needlessly and pointlessly interjecting your hyper partisan desire to turn this issue into a gendar war one when the issue could just as realistically be a justice system one.
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the lawyer can file all the motions he wants and the judge has the right to dismiss those motions which more than likely this will be dismissed as well.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Zyphlin said:
They're likely do this again and again and again. Attack the credability of the other person is a tired and true low ball effort for the legal profession, and not just in rape cases. This is one of the pitfalls of a legal system where people are innocent until proven guilty and who are guaranteed a fair trial under the law. You're rarely going to have people just walking up and going "GUILTY" outside of plea deals, which means lawyers will always try to be finding SOME method of attempting to win the case. Even if the best case scenario is unlikely to succeed 99% of the times, that 1% chance is still viewed as worth it compared to the 100% chance of being found guilty if you plead guilty.

The question isn't when this will stop happening in the legal profession in this fashion. That's a question that basically has no purpose OTHER than to assure that those who make their political hay off this issue will always be able to beat the drum. The question is whether society, by and large, views these kind of defenses as laughable and illegitimate. And, by and large, that is the case.
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It's insulting to victims of a crime committed, low ball isn't the cliche' though, it's much lower than that, how about slugs.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

AJiveMan said:
So the defense lawyers are basically blaming the female, again. :roll:

How many more times do people need to hear this kind of crap before they stop blaming the victim?

RAPE CULTURE


Rape culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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that is why we have a trial and evidence. we don't now all the facts in this case yet. people are less apt to jump at rape cases like they use to and the duke lacross team was a huge reason for that. it use to be that the benefit of the doubt always went toward the rape victim. the duke case changed all that.

now more attention is given to evidence and the defendant than the victim.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

AJiveMan said:
It's insulting to victims of a crime committed, low ball isn't the cliche' though, it's much lower than that, how about slugs.
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I absolutely understand it's insulting to the victims of the crimes.

The actions by Westboro Baptist Church are insulting to the families of those they're protesting as well. However, people like them are part of the pitfalls of the system we have in place in this country as it relates to the right to free speech. And thier existance and actions are not an indictment on free speech, or an indication of society accepting the notion of protesting funerals and declaring god is killing our military members because he "hates fags".

Simplarly, while the actions of defense attornies and their clients can be insulting to the victims of the crime, I do not believe it's an indictment on our legal system NOR do I think it's an indication that society accepts the arguments they're putting forward as legitimate.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

ludin said:
that is why we have a trial and evidence. we don't now all the facts in this case yet. people are less apt to jump at rape cases like they use to and the duke lacross team was a huge reason for that. it use to be that the benefit of the doubt always went toward the rape victim. the duke case changed all that.

now more attention is given to evidence and the defendant than the victim.
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I doubt any rape victim gave his or her permission in advance to **** them after they became intoxicated and passed out, and I also doubt a victim would give permission to be photographed during and after being raped.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Zyphlin said:
I absolutely understand it's insulting to the victims of the crimes.

The actions by Westboro Baptist Church are insulting to the families of those they're protesting as well. However, people like them are part of the pitfalls of the system we have in place in this country as it relates to the right to free speech. And thier existance and actions are not an indictment on free speech, or an indication of society accepting the notion of protesting funerals and declaring god is killing our military members because he "hates fags".

Simplarly, while the actions of defense attornies and their clients can be insulting to the victims of the crime, I do not believe it's an indictment on our legal system NOR do I think it's an indication that society accepts the arguments they're putting forward as legitimate.
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I had a court appearance years ago, and my attorney advised me that the prosecutor would say dirty and nasty things about me during arguments, my attorney advised me not to outburst or call the prosecuting attorney a liar or anything else, and said it would hurt my case if I did.

I had to sit and listen to the prosecutor's **** for 15 minutes, while my attorney objected many times.

IMO, attorneys need to change their etiquette, or at least acquire some.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

AJiveMan said:
I doubt any rape victim gave his or her permission in advance to **** them after they became intoxicated and passed out, and I also doubt a victim would give permission to be photographed during and after being raped.
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that is why it is left up to the jury.

we don't know what happened. she probably could have said yes and was so drunk she forgot.

pictures could hurt them on a different charge, but that is what a trial is for.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

I'm not quite sure I would say that a "culture of rape is persistent" in all American men...
But I believe it would be safe to say that college, and even high school, athletic stars have an attitude of sexual entitlement that often gets them into rape situations and accusations.
In this case, IMHO, rape is more likely to have occurred than not.
Of course they are due their day in court, but the defense, so far as it has been presented here, has guilty of rape written all over it.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Zyphlin said:
Your links are all well and good...if I was suggesting somehow that "rape culture" doesn't exist. I haven't indicated my thoughts either way on this. My comments, and your responses, has been regarding my claims of your attempt to drag this into a "gender war" issue when the far simpler answer is that this isn't motivated by some notion of "rape culture" or anything of the sorts....it's motivated by wanting to try and put forward a defense becuase the person doens't want to plead guilty, and they have little better options than to pull this tired old card. Posting links trying to back up the notion that there is "rape cultuer" doesn't counter my suggestion that you're needlessly and pointlessly interjecting your hyper partisan desire to turn this issue into a gendar war one when the issue could just as realistically be a justice system one.
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`
You are claiming that my statement about "rape culture", somehow....mystically or supernaturally, I'm not quite sure; makes this a "gender war" argument. Ok. And my response, has been and will continue to be, "that's your opinion." Very simple. Repetition will not change a thing.

Why do you keep rehashing this?
`
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Paxaeon said:
`
`
There are more than a few issues here; 1) The persistent rape culture amongst some men and the 2) proliferation of privileged and coddled life of star athletes in college who assume rape is a benefit. However, what I find offensive is the assumption that supposed promiscuity and drinking makes rape justifiable.
`
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Of all the rapes and assaults which happen every day across America, why should anyone pay more attention to this case than another?
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Jerry said:
Of all the rapes and assaults which happen every day across America, why should anyone pay more attention to this case than another?
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It wasn't some pervert lurking in ambush in a darkened park. That form of rape is universally recognized as abhorrent.
This was college athletic stars who no doubt felt they had an entitlement to sexual favors from any girl they wanted under any circumstances.
All too often this type of rape has been historically tolerated in our society.
It's time for that to change.
That is why we should give it more attention.
 
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Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Paxaeon said:
And my response, has been and will continue to be, "that's your opinion."
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And I've acknowledged, repeatedly, that it is my opinion but pointed out that based on your statements it's an opinion backed up with significant facts. The "repitition" has came in because you've been responding to that claim with information that is irrelevant to it, such as trying to prove that "rape culture" exists", which has caused me to have to repeat my position since your arguments show you didn't quite understand it the first time.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Thom Paine said:
inre: bold

We agree with "justifiable" ( it is BS ); though the phrasing seems to automatically assume the accusation is correct without seeing the "facts".

The attorney's motion is reasonable sabre rattling in defense of his client. It lets the plaintiff know she will be thoroughly investigated to establish the reliability of her testimony. If you were accused of a crime and responded with "WTH ? .. that is NOT what happened", it would be appropriate for your attorney to follow the same or similar path. There may be much to shout when this is over but we should not "put the cart in front of the horse".

Have a good day Pax :peace

Thom Paine
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Is the fact that she was inconcious in dispute here?
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Paxaeon said:
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Read this and Note Well: However, what I find offensive is the assumption that supposed promiscuity and drinking makes rape justifiable. - That is the defense his lawyers are using. I'll wait for a trial but this BS defense has been shot down so many times it's pathetic.
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This is a speghetti-at-the-Wall defense.

He will try anything to get his client off, evenif it doesn't make sense.

If the judge accepted it, then you would have every reason to scream.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Buck Ewer said:
It wasn't some pervert lurking in ambush in a darkened park. That form of rape is universally recognized as abhorrent.
This was college athletic stars who no doubt felt they had an entitlement to sexual favors from any girl they wanted under any circumstances.
All too often this type of rape has been historically tolerated in our society.
It's time for that to change.
That is why we should give it more attention.
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Rape is illegal, not tolerated. I don't see why the perps belonging to a collage matters in the least. Is it that you follow collage football? I don't.

And of course their attorney entered a motion to dismiss in their defense, that's the attorney's job.

You honestly think a collage football team represents society? You must live in a small town to think that. I didn't even know this collage existed before this thread.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

tres borrachos said:
Many men have always thought it was okay to have sex with someone who is passed out or can't stop the act. That isn't new.
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I don't think I've ever known a single man who thought that. I have to wonder what kind of people you hang around with.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

VanceMack said:
1-If the victim was unconscious, there is no excuse regardless of the victims history.
.
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That right there, is basically it. You can't just do it and then claim, "Well, she probably would have said yes..."
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Jerry said:
I don't think I've ever known a single man who thought that. I have to wonder what kind of people you hang around with.
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exactly. the problem is we don't know what she said before hand or anything else. i am sure that will come out in the trial.

the pictures they took are a misdomenor at the worst.

where do these women come up with these off the top things.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Jerry said:
Rape is illegal, not tolerated. I don't see why the perps belonging to a collage matters in the least.
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Historically college rape committed by school sports stars HAS been tolerated and covered up in the past.
.Is it that you follow collage football? I don't.
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I don't follow any sports.

You honestly think a collage football team represents society?
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Re-read my post ...I never said anything like that. You must have me confused with someone else.
 
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Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Paxaeon said:
`
`
There are more than a few issues here; 1) The persistent rape culture amongst some men and the 2) proliferation of privileged and coddled life of star athletes in college who assume rape is a benefit. However, what I find offensive is the assumption that supposed promiscuity and drinking makes rape justifiable.
`
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You're missing number 3 - Scumbag lawyers who will jump any shark to get their clients off even when they know their clients did the deed.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Buck Ewer said:
Historically college rape committed by school sports stars HAS been tolerated in the past.
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I wouldn't know. It seems others don't know, either. An OP should show that history as the pretext for the rant.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

Jerry said:
I don't think I've ever known a single man who thought that. I have to wonder what kind of people you hang around with.
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Well, Jerry, my other post explained why I said that. I don't know how you got out of it that people I hang around with think that.

And the reality is, up to and including the OP, the fact is men have thought that. I said "many" men because I saw it back 30 years ago, and unless something changed, I assume many men over the years have thought it. I gave some specific examples in a later post, and if you read them, I mentioned instances that I was aware of in college (in the early 1980s), and 1 instance where I witnessed it myself while at a work party, also in the 1980s.

If you notice, I am also offended by and pushing back on the OP claim that this is a cultural thing. A few yahoos don't make a culture or even indicate it's a systemic view.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

ludin said:
exactly. the problem is we don't know what she said before hand or anything else. i am sure that will come out in the trial.

the pictures they took are a misdomenor at the worst.

where do these women come up with these off the top things.
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Excuse me? "These women"?

I was not talking about the situation in the OP when I posted what I did. I said I had seen it for myself - and I have.
 
Re: TN football player wants rape case dismissed because unconscious victim was ‘prom

clownboy said:
You're missing number 3 - Scumbag lawyers who will jump any shark to get their clients off even when they know their clients did the deed.
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The scumbag lawyer is just doing his scumbag lawyer job. That is how the system is supposed to work. It is the judge and jury's job to see that he is jumping the shark and that he is a scumbag. I wouldn't blame the lawyer.
The fact that his defense even hints about the victim's promiscuity or drinking history indicates a very weak defense and that he is probably guilty.
If the woman was a full time prostitute, a black-out drunk, married to the man and normally had sex with him five times a day, nonconsensual sex is still rape.
 
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