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Thread: So Rand Paul called Cheney an evil war profiteer

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    Re: So Rand Paul called Cheney an evil war profiteer

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    From Boeing's Fighter and Support aircraft to Lockheed Martins weapon systems...and Aircraft, to the Aegis defense systems and the hundreds of others, Private Defense Contractors have been apart of our National defense for decades.
    Right, they have, and it's a serious problem that only the ignorant/stupid dismiss. We NEED those private contractors, but the fact that they're prosperity depends on the U.S. maintaining a $multi-hundred billion annual defense posture, along with the prosperity of hundreds of Congressional districts, tilts the country towards war, and towards maintaining a permanent war footing

    The ONLY reason people like you targeted Halliburton was because there was a Political angle.

    Its why you CONTINUE to target Halliburton.
    It's because the government directing no bid contracts to the company formerly led by the VP, which provided that VP with a severance package of more than $30 million, is as clear a (perceived, at least) conflict of interest as you'll find anywhere.


    Hell yea, the Libs are easilly amused, because a quick Google search would reveall the Hundreds of Defense Contractors that we've used over the years.
    Did you even read what I wrote? I'll quote myself:

    Are you not concerned that 'war' now means that hundreds, perhaps thousands, of companies will enjoy far higher profits, bonuses, etc. if we send our kids off to get maimed and killed in wars? There was no downside to any of those companies for going into Iraq, and many fortunes were made because we did. The incentives are just horrific. The 'military industrial complex' and the problems identified by Eisenhower decades ago are simply real. You call the people who worried about that 'easily entertained.' I'd call anyone who wasn't concerned about Halliburton and hundreds of other companies ignorant, foolish, shortsighted, and/or just plain stupid.
    So why do I need a google search to confirm what I readily acknowledged in the post you QUOTED?

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    Re: So Rand Paul called Cheney an evil war profiteer

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Bush and Cheney are gone and they allowed it to happen the first time, do you remember? CIA told Bush about threat to Mainland by Al Qeda. Germany, France, Israel, and Russia told USA about threats. USA, aka, Bush and Cheney ignored threats and 9-11 followed. Ergo, Bush and Cheney allowed it to happen. Pretty simple, really. Maybe too simple to fit a Mainstream Media tool and success story.
    Or maybe your account of "how things really happened" is just a little too simple. Even in 1998 that government officials believed Osama bin Laden was determined to attack inside the United States. They even wrote about it in Time magazine. Three years before they actually did. And those who did it received their Visas to enter this country under Clinton's great intelligence/security team well before Bush was even elected. And you are going to slap Bush with all the blame for ignoring one email while in office less than 7 months when the Clinton folks had been there for 8 friggin years, allowed the 1993 first Trade Center bombing to occur, knew the threats were real and still didn't take care of the problem? Why didn't Clinton put into practice tighter security in screening people entering this country when he damn well knew there was a threat? Oh wait a minute, Democrats are against profiling.
    Last edited by vesper; 06-23-14 at 02:10 PM.

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    Re: So Rand Paul called Cheney an evil war profiteer

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    * Sigh *...

    Nonsense.


    From Boeing's Fighter and Support aircraft to Lockheed Martins weapon systems...and Aircraft, to the Aegis defense systems and the hundreds of others, Private Defense Contractors have been apart of our National defense for decades.
    One other point, if you're an ambitious senior level military official, the path to riches is clear. Hand out fat contracts to the defense industry at every opportunity, retire, and transition into a six or seven figure job as a lobbyist, senior advisor, etc. It's fairly amazing that conservatives are dismissing the just clear conflicts and opportunities for corruption in the current set up. Unbelievable, actually, unless you just have no idea how business gets done in the country, and don't bother to read ANYTHING about how the process actually works.

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    Re: So Rand Paul called Cheney an evil war profiteer

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Right, they have, and it's a serious problem that only the ignorant/stupid dismiss. We NEED those private contractors, but the fact that they're prosperity depends on the U.S. maintaining a $multi-hundred billion annual defense posture, along with the prosperity of hundreds of Congressional districts, tilts the country towards war, and towards maintaining a permanent war footing



    It's because the government directing no bid contracts to the company formerly led by the VP, which provided that VP with a severance package of more than $30 million, is as clear a (perceived, at least) conflict of interest as you'll find anywhere.




    Did you even read what I wrote? I'll quote myself:



    So why do I need a google search to confirm what I readily acknowledged in the post you QUOTED?
    Halliburton revieved it's first " No bid " contract during the Clinton administration, NOT the Bush administration so why weren't you people crying over Halliburton back then ?

    The rest of your ridiculous rhetoric centers around the leftist narrative of the evils of the " Military Industrial Complex ".

    I don't subscribe to the narrative that we go to war for profits and not defense.

    I'm not that naive.

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    Re: So Rand Paul called Cheney an evil war profiteer

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Halliburton revieved it's first " No bid " contract during the Clinton administration, NOT the Bush administration so why weren't you people crying over Halliburton back then ?

    The rest of your ridiculous rhetoric centers around the leftist narrative of the evils of the " Military Industrial Complex ".

    I don't subscribe to the narrative that we go to war for profits and not defense.

    I'm not that naive.
    First of all, Halliburton, as I said and repeated, is just a symptom of a far bigger problem. I can repeat that again if you want - they're a symptom of a far bigger problem.

    Second, I'm not naive enough to believe that profits don't grease the skids to war. Mankind has been waging war for all of human history for profits, why do you think the U.S. is somehow immune? And if we ARE immune, it's because we recognize that wars are almost always waged for profit (at some level) and as a citizenry we are vigilant about the dangers. The founders were vehemently against a standing army in part for this reason and others.

    I'm genuinely shocked that you see no dangers in privatizing war, and believe that the immense profits from a $trillion/year military industrial complex don't carry with them huge perverse incentives. It really makes no sense if you have the slightest grasp of how things get done in Washington. I will say the libertarians, to their credit, DO understand this. It's one of many areas where liberals and libertarians can find common ground.
    Last edited by JasperL; 06-23-14 at 02:58 PM.

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    Re: So Rand Paul called Cheney an evil war profiteer

    All war is motivated by profit of some sort. But by private actors, for private actors? Not really.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: So Rand Paul called Cheney an evil war profiteer

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    All war is motivated by profit of some sort. But by private actors, for private actors? Not really.
    Are you saying the perhaps $100 billion (or pick a number you find reasonable) in annual profits from a $trillion in spending/year associated preparing for and waging war have no effect on the decisions to go to war? I disagree. If everyone that Congressmen listen to in D.C. will profit from a war, it at a minimum removes HUGE barriers to making the decision to wage war.

    Plus, a $trillion annually supports entire communities in many cases. I live near Oak Ridge - DOE and DOD are huge employers, directly and indirectly through a slew of private contractors. Area Congressmen (All of them GOPers) have an obligation almost to see that funding does NOT get cut. It would devastate the local economy to see that funding dry up and we're not unusual.

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    Re: So Rand Paul called Cheney an evil war profiteer

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Are you saying the perhaps $100 billion (or pick a number you find reasonable) in annual profits from a $trillion in spending/year associated preparing for and waging war have no effect on the decisions to go to war? I disagree. If everyone that Congressmen listen to in D.C. will profit from a war, it at a minimum removes HUGE barriers to making the decision to wage war.

    Plus, a $trillion annually supports entire communities in many cases. I live near Oak Ridge - DOE and DOD are huge employers, directly and indirectly through a slew of private contractors. Area Congressmen (All of them GOPers) have an obligation almost to see that funding does NOT get cut. It would devastate the local economy to see that funding dry up and we're not unusual.
    And they're huge employers regardless of whether there's a war on or not. I'm very familiar with the way the DoD works, I've been part of the evil MIC since I was 21.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: So Rand Paul called Cheney an evil war profiteer

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    And they're huge employers regardless of whether there's a war on or not. I'm very familiar with the way the DoD works, I've been part of the evil MIC since I was 21.
    Well, from about the mid 1980s, after the Reagan defense ramp ups, through the Iraq war, we spent about $300 billion (directly, not counting DOE and other defense spending in other agencies). The war ramped up the total to over $700 billion in constant dollars. That $400B/YEAR has no effect?

    Graph here: http://mercatus.org/sites/default/fi...-Chart-580.jpg

    And there is nothing inherently evil about the MIC. Living her I have all kinds of friends and family working for the MIC. We need a strong defense. I'm just pointing out the perverse incentives, and can't believe that the point isn't just utterly obvious, like pointing out the sun rises in the east.

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    Re: So Rand Paul called Cheney an evil war profiteer

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    First of all, Halliburton, as I said and repeated, is just a symptom of a far bigger problem. I can repeat that again if you want - they're a symptom of a far bigger problem.

    Second, I'm not naive enough to believe that profits don't grease the skids to war. Mankind has been waging war for all of human history for profits, why do you think the U.S. is somehow immune? And if we ARE immune, it's because we recognize that wars are almost always waged for profit (at some level) and as a citizenry we are vigilant about the dangers. The founders were vehemently against a standing army in part for this reason and others.

    I'm genuinely shocked that you see no dangers in privatizing war, and believe that the immense profits from a $trillion/year military industrial complex don't carry with them huge perverse incentives. It really makes no sense if you have the slightest grasp of how things get done in Washington. I will say the libertarians, to their credit, DO understand this. It's one of many areas where liberals and libertarians can find common ground.
    I'm not a Libertarian, I'm a Conservative and the Constitution strictly states that our Government should provide for the Common defense.

    I'm also a Capitalist, who understands the benefits of the Free market system over a Centrally planned economy.

    Kicking the private Contractors out of the Defense business based on platitudes and false narratives like " the Military Industrial Complex " would be foolish beyond comprehension.

    We are a Super Power because of the innovation that grows out of our free market economy and out of our Defense Contractors ability to seek out profits in a Competitive market.

    War for profit ? Plueeze....

    Its a incredibly naive assessment of the overall human condition to think that Corporate profits are what motivates men to war.

    Try digging into a History book and not putting the cart before the horse and realize that Man needs little incentive to kill his neighbors.

    The USSR wasn't motivated by '' corporate profits " to invade Afghanistan or to start and perpetuate a Cold war with us.

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