• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

ISIS in Iraq seizes control of Saddam Hussein’s chemical weapons facility

Maenad said:
You've tested it and you know. Groovy.
Click to expand...

No Deuce is probably correct, this time. :lol: That stuff does have an expiration date as far as weaponization goes.
 
Deuce said:
Why would they publicize that?
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't they - didn't the administration at the time need support of WMD's? If the chemical weapons were old and as you say, lost their potency why not publicize it.
 
American said:
No Deuce is probably correct, this time. :lol: That stuff does have an expiration date as far as weaponization goes.
Click to expand...

Anthrax expires? Really? Oh wait, that is a biological weapon. It's been a while since I had to keep up with things like anthrax and smallpox, etc. But, unknown to most people those in the American healthcare system have to at least do lip service to the signs and symptoms of the biological weapons.
 
Maenad said:
Anthrax expires? Really? Oh wait, that is a biological weapon. It's been a while since I had to keep up with things like anthrax and smallpox, etc. But, unknown to most people those in the American healthcare system have to at least do lip service to the signs and symptoms of the biological weapons.
Click to expand...

Make your case.
 
American said:
Make your case.
Click to expand...

I was thinking of biological weapons as chemical weapons. Biological weapons would not expire because they are viruses and bacteria. Viruses and some bacteria can lay dormant for many many years, maybe even hundreds of years. If we are talking about manufactured chemicals, then, OK, they are likely expired. I don't know any more about chemicals than I had to learn for my nursing degree. But I do know a fair amount about biological weapons. Medical workers have to be ready to handle such an attack, and are trained for it. We also have to be 'fit tested' with a mask that will keep biological and chemical weapons out of our bodies. You put on the mask, and then they spray a stinky something or other. If you can smell it your mask is all wrong. You can't go back to the job until your mask keeps you from smelling the stinky stuff. That way you are safe. But bear in mind, I've been retired for a year. They were still doing this right before I retired.

Agents considered for weaponization, or known to be weaponized, include bacteria such as Bacillus anthracis, Brucella spp., Burkholderia mallei, Burkholderia pseudomallei, Chlamydophila psittaci, Coxiella burnetii, Francisella tularensis, some of the Rickettsiaceae (especially Rickettsia prowazekii and Rickettsia rickettsii), Shigella spp., Vibrio cholerae, and Yersinia pestis. Many viral agents have been studied and/or weaponized, including some of the Bunyaviridae (especially Rift Valley fever virus), Ebolavirus, many of the Flaviviridae (especially Japanese encephalitis virus), Machupo virus, Marburg virus, Variola virus, and Yellow fever virus. Fungal agents that have been studied include Coccidioides spp..[23][24]
Click to expand...

Biological warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Biological weapons, though, are not without problems. First, there has to be a method of delivery which can be problematic. And of course such weapons can be degraded by chemicals, weather, sunlight, etc. But they can be very deadly. I have had some very dire scenarios played for me in training to handle casualties in biological warfare.

I would consider it unwise to just blow off the possibility of such warfare should these agents fall into the hands of terrorists.
 
Napoleon said:
Nonsense. Iraq was incapable of producing anything that would last longer than a few months even if stored under optimal conditions (and they never were). The chemicals in those shells have been degraded to the point that a spritz of Windex would probably be more hazardous to your health and so they have been for decades. We found quite a few of these old, abandoned, and useless munitions.
Click to expand...

Making it up as you go along. Obviously the weapons are highly degraded today......not so much in 2003. And it is nonsensical to suggest they were unable to make anything that would last more then a few months. It's a certainty that the regime maintained them at least until the sanctions heat and then attempted to hide them. And it's beside the point what condition they are in now. The point is that all of you liberals have been claiming for 11 years that the damn stuff just did not exist. What was found was what was missing and unaccounted for. It was what the inspectors were looking for. You liberals will now have to adopt a new slogan. "Bush lied to get us into war" has just been disproven.
 
Maenad said:
I was thinking of biological weapons as chemical weapons. Biological weapons would not expire because they are viruses and bacteria. Viruses and some bacteria can lay dormant for many many years, maybe even hundreds of years. If we are talking about manufactured chemicals, then, OK, they are likely expired. I don't know any more about chemicals than I had to learn for my nursing degree. But I do know a fair amount about biological weapons. Medical workers have to be ready to handle such an attack, and are trained for it. We also have to be 'fit tested' with a mask that will keep biological and chemical weapons out of our bodies. You put on the mask, and then they spray a stinky something or other. If you can smell it your mask is all wrong. You can't go back to the job until your mask keeps you from smelling the stinky stuff. That way you are safe. But bear in mind, I've been retired for a year. They were still doing this right before I retired.



Biological warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Biological weapons, though, are not without problems. First, there has to be a method of delivery which can be problematic. And of course such weapons can be degraded by chemicals, weather, sunlight, etc. But they can be very deadly. I have had some very dire scenarios played for me in training to handle casualties in biological warfare.

I would consider it unwise to just blow off the possibility of such warfare should these agents fall into the hands of terrorists.
Click to expand...

We're talking about WMDs which are all weapons designed to kill masses of people, other than convention TNT based bombs.
 
American said:
We're talking about WMDs which are all weapons designed to kill masses of people, other than convention TNT based bombs.
Click to expand...

OK. Well, I can tell you that health care facilities were still preparing and teaching their people to deal with biological warfare and bioterrorism when I retired in May 2013. I don't know how to get you any of the official material because, of course, I no longer have access. But commercial courses are currently available and accredited by the ANCC:

B4025 MRSA - A Health care and Community issue 1 $9.95 MRSA - A Health care and Community issue
N1079 Bioterrorism and the Nurse's Response to Weapons of Mass Destruction 5 $29.95 Bioterrorism and the Nurse's Response to Weapons of Mass Destruction
N1093 Bioterrorism Readiness: The Nurse's Critical Role 2 $14.95 Bioterrorism Readiness: The Nurse's Critical Role
N1178 MRSA: A Healthcare and Community Issue 1 $9.95 MRSA: A Healthcare and Community Issue
N1313 Avian Influenza 1 $9.95 Avian Influenza
NTR14 Trauma Bundle
Click to expand...

View Courses

Infection control departments of hospitals disseminate material on a fairly routine basis so clinicians will recognize signs and symptoms. Again, something I no longer can access. But the CDC remains current:

Bioterrorism Agents/Diseases

A to Z | By Category

A

Anthrax (Bacillus anthracis)


Arenaviruses


B

Bacillus anthracis (anthrax)


Botulism (Clostridium botulinum toxin)


Brucella species (brucellosis)


Brucellosis (Brucella species)


Burkholderia mallei (glanders)


Burkholderia pseudomallei (melioidosis)


C

Chlamydia psittaci (psittacosis)


Cholera (Vibrio cholerae)


Clostridium botulinum toxin (botulism)


Clostridium perfringens (Epsilon toxin)


Coxiella burnetii (Q fever)


E

Ebola virus hemorrhagic fever


E. coli O157:H7 (Escherichia coli)


Emerging infectious diseases such as Nipah virus and hantavirus


Epsilon toxin of Clostridium perfringens


Escherichia coli O157:H7 (E. coli)


F

Food safety threats (e.g., Salmonella species, Escherichia coli O157:H7, Shigella)


Francisella tularensis (tularemia)


G

Glanders (Burkholderia mallei)


L

Lassa fever


M

Marburg virus hemorrhagic fever


Melioidosis (Burkholderia pseudomallei)


P

Plague (Yersinia pestis)


Psittacosis (Chlamydia psittaci)


Q

Q fever (Coxiella burnetii)


R

Ricin toxin from Ricinus communis (castor beans)


Rickettsia prowazekii (typhus fever)


S

Salmonella species (salmonellosis)


Salmonella Typhi (typhoid fever)


Salmonellosis (Salmonella species)


Shigella (shigellosis)


Shigellosis (Shigella)


Smallpox (variola major)


Staphylococcal enterotoxin B


T

Tularemia (Francisella tularensis)


Typhoid fever (Salmonella Typhi)


Typhus fever (Rickettsia prowazekii)


V

Variola major (smallpox)


Vibrio cholerae (cholera)


Viral encephalitis (alphaviruses [e.g., Venezuelan equine encephalitis, eastern equine encephalitis, western equine encephalitis])


Viral hemorrhagic fevers (filoviruses [e.g., Ebola, Marburg] and arenaviruses [e.g., Lassa, Machupo])


W

Water safety threats (e.g., Vibrio cholerae, Cryptosporidium parvum)


Y

Yersinia pestis (plague)
Click to expand...

CDC | Bioterrorism Agents/Diseases | Emergency Preparedness & Response

That's about the best I can do.
 
ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant - Worldnews.com

Reportedly the ISIS has seized control of Saddam Hussein's best chemical weapons plant and it STILL has stockpiles of Sarin, VX, and mustard gas.

What happened what we've been hearing about for 12 years about "Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq".

Now, you can say "oh they're old" (20 years plus).

Who gives a damn. Lots of old weapons still work fine. The U.S. was using bombs built in WW2 during the Vietnam War.

The U.S. was firing 16 inch gun rounds from the Iowa class battleship forty years later in Desert Storm.

At any rate, supposedly, Iraq had NO WMDs which means NO CHEMICAL WEAPONS. And in fact supposedly had NO ABILITY to build them.

Lots of people owe Bush/Cheney a big apology.​
 
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

Yeah, I thought of that just earlier today. Isn't that interesting?
 
ObamacareFail said:
Making it up as you go along. Obviously the weapons are highly degraded today......not so much in 2003. And it is nonsensical to suggest they were unable to make anything that would last more then a few months. It's a certainty that the regime maintained them at least until the sanctions heat and then attempted to hide them. And it's beside the point what condition they are in now. The point is that all of you liberals have been claiming for 11 years that the damn stuff just did not exist. What was found was what was missing and unaccounted for. It was what the inspectors were looking for. You liberals will now have to adopt a new slogan. "Bush lied to get us into war" has just been disproven.
Click to expand...


Apparently you never read the ISG reports and certainly weren't paying attention when Bush himself publicly admitted that there were no WMD.
 
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

Dayton3 said:
ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant - Worldnews.com

Reportedly the ISIS has seized control of Saddam Hussein's best chemical weapons plant and it STILL has stockpiles of Sarin, VX, and mustard gas.

What happened what we've been hearing about for 12 years about "Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq".

Now, you can say "oh they're old" (20 years plus).

Who gives a damn. Lots of old weapons still work fine. The U.S. was using bombs built in WW2 during the Vietnam War.

The U.S. was firing 16 inch gun rounds from the Iowa class battleship forty years later in Desert Storm.

At any rate, supposedly, Iraq had NO WMDs which means NO CHEMICAL WEAPONS. And in fact supposedly had NO ABILITY to build them.

Lots of people owe Bush/Cheney a big apology.​
Click to expand...

GE (General Explosive) bombs have a longer shelf life than some chemical compounds, and I'll admit to not knowing the shelf life of Iraqi Mustard - from what I understand it was pretty stable, but yeah, as you point out, it's been decades.


What I don't understand is why folks are surprised. We knew that Saddam still had Sarin back in 2004, which was also the year that it leaked that we had secretly found and removed 2 tons of enriched uranium and roughly 1,000 highly radioactive sources" that "could potentially be used in a radiological dispersal device," or dirty bomb. That's part of what made the simplistic "bush lied people died" chants so annoyingly vapid.
 
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

So, like...he gassed his own people?


So, like....yeah, he had WMDs?
 
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

Dayton3 said:
ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant - Worldnews.com

Reportedly the ISIS has seized control of Saddam Hussein's best chemical weapons plant and it STILL has stockpiles of Sarin, VX, and mustard gas.

What happened what we've been hearing about for 12 years about "Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq".

Now, you can say "oh they're old" (20 years plus).

Who gives a damn. Lots of old weapons still work fine. The U.S. was using bombs built in WW2 during the Vietnam War.

The U.S. was firing 16 inch gun rounds from the Iowa class battleship forty years later in Desert Storm.

At any rate, supposedly, Iraq had NO WMDs which means NO CHEMICAL WEAPONS. And in fact supposedly had NO ABILITY to build them.

Lots of people owe Bush/Cheney a big apology.​
Click to expand...

They definitely won't be getting an apology. They pushed misinformation in other ways. Not to mention the Iraq War was badly conceived and badly implemented. Easily ranks in the top 10 blunders of American history.

Anyway, if you were impartial you would realize conservatives freely utilize equally misleading slogans. Making catchy phrases, banners, and cartoons to bait people into supporting your cause is sort of what partisans do.
 
Last edited:
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

And by the way, if it's anything like vicain, or any other gases used in fumigation...it loses some potency over time...but still lethal.

Most of those gasses are contained under pressure, which reduces the movement of molecules, effectively placing them in stasis.


SCIENCE.
 
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

cpwill said:
GE (General Explosive) bombs have a longer shelf life than some chemical compounds, and I'll admit to not knowing the shelf life of Iraqi Mustard - from what I understand it was pretty stable, but yeah, as you point out, it's been decades.


What I don't understand is why folks are surprised. We knew that Saddam still had Sarin back in 2004. That's part of what made the simplistic "bush lied people died" chants so annoyingly vapid.
Click to expand...

even though chemical weapons are WMDS by definition, the medias framing of the argument was that the administration was talking about iraq possessing a specific kind of Weapon of mass destruction. the kind of weapon of mass destruction whose defining characteristic is that upon detonation it creates a giant mushroom cloud.

there was also a lot of talk about Iraq possessing yellow cake uranium.
 
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

Some people just won't let this go. Move on.

Sunni Extremists in Iraq Occupy Saddam Hussein's Chemical Weapons Facility - WSJ

Washington—Sunni extremists in Iraq have occupied what was once Saddam Hussein's premier chemical-weapons production facility, a complex that still contains a stockpile of old weapons, State Department and other U.S. government officials said.

U.S. officials don't believe the Sunni militants will be able to create a functional chemical weapon from the material. The weapons stockpiled at the Al Muthanna complex are old, contaminated and hard to move, officials said.

Nonetheless, the capture of the chemical-weapon stockpile by the forces of the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham, known as ISIS or ISIL, the militant group that is seizing territory in the country, has grabbed the attention of the U.S.

"We remain concerned about the seizure of any military site by the ISIL," Jen Psaki, the State Department spokeswoman, said in a written statement. "We do not believe that the complex contains CW materials of military value and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to safely move the materials."
Click to expand...

....

"The only people who would likely be harmed by these chemical materials would be the people who tried to use or move them," said a military official.
Click to expand...
 
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

Once again, they were supposed to have NONE. As in ZERO. And ZERO capacity to build them.
 
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

Dayton3 said:
Once again, they were supposed to have NONE. As in ZERO. And ZERO capacity to build them.
Click to expand...

This is called moving the goal post.
 
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

Dayton3 said:
ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant - Worldnews.com

Reportedly the ISIS has seized control of Saddam Hussein's best chemical weapons plant and it STILL has stockpiles of Sarin, VX, and mustard gas.

What happened what we've been hearing about for 12 years about "Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq".

Now, you can say "oh they're old" (20 years plus).

Who gives a damn. Lots of old weapons still work fine. The U.S. was using bombs built in WW2 during the Vietnam War.

The U.S. was firing 16 inch gun rounds from the Iowa class battleship forty years later in Desert Storm.

At any rate, supposedly, Iraq had NO WMDs which means NO CHEMICAL WEAPONS. And in fact supposedly had NO ABILITY to build them.

Lots of people owe Bush/Cheney a big apology.​
Click to expand...

Did you even read the story you linked?

Islamist militants in Iraq have occupied Saddam Hussein's former chemical weapons production facility, which contains a stockpile of old chemical weapon, the US government says.

"We do not believe that the complex contains CW materials of military value and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to safely move the materials."

The claim the former Iraqi leader possessed weapons of mass destruction and posed a threat to world security was the basis for the 2003 US invasion of Iraq.

The weapons at Muthanna had been found by UN inspectors but were dismantled with chemical stocks militarily useless and closed off in bunkers.

"During its peak in the late 1980s to early 1990s, it amassed mega-bunkers full of chemical munitions, and provided Iraq with a force multiplier sufficient to counteract Iran's superior military numbers."​

The late 80's and early 90's were a decade prior to the Iraq war and it even says the inspectors dismantled the exact chemical stocks you are holding up as evidence. Right there in your own story. :shock:

Looks like Bush & Cheney still owe all of humanity an apology for lying.
 
Last edited:
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

Dayton3 said:
ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant - Worldnews.com

Reportedly the ISIS has seized control of Saddam Hussein's best chemical weapons plant and it STILL has stockpiles of Sarin, VX, and mustard gas.

What happened what we've been hearing about for 12 years about "Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq".

Now, you can say "oh they're old" (20 years plus).

Who gives a damn. Lots of old weapons still work fine. The U.S. was using bombs built in WW2 during the Vietnam War.

The U.S. was firing 16 inch gun rounds from the Iowa class battleship forty years later in Desert Storm.

At any rate, supposedly, Iraq had NO WMDs which means NO CHEMICAL WEAPONS. And in fact supposedly had NO ABILITY to build them.

Lots of people owe Bush/Cheney a big apology.​
Click to expand...

Of course he had chemical weapons he only used them on the Kurds....

Democrats WANT you to believe Saddam didn't because a) they love totalitarian dictators and b) hated Bush.

The whole Iraq debate had absolutely NOTHING to do with weather or not Saddam had WMD's and everything to do with politics.

People (or at least the idiots) forget the entire war would have never been funded if congress didn't vote repeatedly to fund it. Every member of Congress (including the libertarians or "3rd party") damn well knew Saddam had WMD's - that was never the issue - the issue was weather or not US intervention was ethical or needed.

You see had Obama invaded Iraq there would be overwhelming support by democrats. You see it's not about what is right and wrong it's about politics and which party does what.

We invaded Iraq - Obama pulled out and now the place has gone to anarchy. It's that simple.

Why? because a bunch of progressives didn't want us there.... Yeah well, it was too late the second we invaded Iraq.

There were only two options a) let Saddam continue to commit crimes against humanity or b) invade Iraq and let his own people murder his ass... After that the solution would be to hold and control Iraq for 20 years....

BTW, Saddam (and his sons) were just as sadistic as Hitler.
 
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

Unitedwestand13 said:
even though chemical weapons are WMDS by definition, the medias framing of the argument was that the administration was talking about iraq possessing a specific kind of Weapon of mass destruction. the kind of weapon of mass destruction whose defining characteristic is that upon detonation it creates a giant mushroom cloud.

there was also a lot of talk about Iraq possessing yellow cake uranium.
Click to expand...

It wasn't just talk:

The last major remnant of Saddam Hussein's nuclear program — a huge stockpile of concentrated natural uranium — reached a Canadian port Saturday to complete a secret U.S. operation that included a two-week airlift from Baghdad and a ship voyage crossing two oceans.

The removal of 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" — the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment — was a significant step toward closing the books on Saddam's nuclear legacy. It also brought relief to U.S. and Iraqi authorities who had worried the cache would reach insurgents or smugglers crossing to Iran to aid its nuclear ambitions.
Click to expand...

U.S. removes 'yellowcake' from Iraq - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - Conflict in Iraq | NBC News
 
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

Amadeus said:
This is called moving the goal post.
Click to expand...

Exactly how many chemical weapons was Saddam Hussein supposed to be allowed to keep and in what condition?

Even degraded chemical weapons can be very dangerous.
 
re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

Dayton3 said:
ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant - Worldnews.com

Reportedly the ISIS has seized control of Saddam Hussein's best chemical weapons plant and it STILL has stockpiles of Sarin, VX, and mustard gas.

What happened what we've been hearing about for 12 years about "Bush lied about WMDs in Iraq".

Now, you can say "oh they're old" (20 years plus).

Who gives a damn. Lots of old weapons still work fine. The U.S. was using bombs built in WW2 during the Vietnam War.

The U.S. was firing 16 inch gun rounds from the Iowa class battleship forty years later in Desert Storm.

At any rate, supposedly, Iraq had NO WMDs which means NO CHEMICAL WEAPONS. And in fact supposedly had NO ABILITY to build them.

Lots of people owe Bush/Cheney a big apology.​
Click to expand...
You must not know who helped him obtain them in the first place.
Rumsfeld 'helped Iraq get chemical weapons' | Mail Online
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom