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Thread: ISIS in Iraq seizes control of Saddam Husseinís chemical weapons facility

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    Re: ISIS in Iraq seizes control of Saddam Husseinís chemical weapons facility

    Posting across several political forums I've come these conclusions:

    1) To people that opposed the war against Iraq, they will NEVER admit that ANYTHING justified it.

    2) People are moving the goal posts regarding what constitutes "weapons". You don't have to be able to mount something in a warhead or bomb for it to be a weapon. Something like 3,000 Americans were killed in Iraq by IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices). These do not fit that definition of "weapon" either as they can't be mounted on a delivery system.
    But I have no doubt those things are considered "weapons".

    3) People are ignoring the fact that Saddam Hussein was not supposed to have ANY chemical weapons OR the capability of making them. Not degraded. Not old. Not rusted. None

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    Re: ISIS in Iraq seizes control of Saddam Husseinís chemical weapons facility

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayton3 View Post
    2) People are moving the goal posts regarding what constitutes "weapons". You don't have to be able to mount something in a warhead or bomb for it to be a weapon. Something like 3,000 Americans were killed in Iraq by IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices). These do not fit that definition of "weapon" either as they can't be mounted on a delivery system.
    But I have no doubt those things are considered "weapons".
    I have a bottle of Ammonia and a bottle of bleach.
    Do I have WMD pre-cursors?

    You have to be able to draw a line somewhere between chemicals which are merely dangerous and chemicals which are weapons.
    Otherwise we have to say that there're thousands of tons of WMD being moved around our country by rail at this very moment. But that's not really a helpful thing to say is it? Cause those tanker cars are not really weapons. They're just containers of dangerous chemicals.

    How do you distinguish between merely dangerous chemicals and chemical weapons if it's not based on the weaponization of those chemicals?
    It seems that the obvious difference between deangerous chemicals and chemical weapons would be the weaponization of those chemicals. But, if as you suggest, weaponization is not what distinguishes dangerous chemicals from chemical weapons, what does?
    Where do you place the "goalposts"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayton3 View Post
    3) People are ignoring the fact that Saddam Hussein was not supposed to have ANY chemical weapons OR the capability of making them. Not degraded. Not old. Not rusted. None
    Perhaps you should re-read the resolutions in effect. UNSCOM et al were well aware of Muthanna.

    If you read the report of the ISG linked to up thread by WCH, you would note that there was no capacity to produce wmd at that site.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    What's weak is you refuse to answer. Game set match... me. Have a nice day!
    Yeah that's how a CON 'wins'... pretends a response isn't 'the answer'....

    (never mind YOU never answered a single question put to you )

    Who would have rebuilt the razed facility AFTER Saddam was hung? Are YOU accusing the Maliki govt of restarting the WMD program under the noses of the CIA and US Military?

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    Re: ISIS in Iraq seizes control of Saddam Husseinís chemical weapons facility

    After Desert Storm

    In 2014 ?


    Doesn't look like it has seen much love in the intervening years.
    Also, you can see why our investigative team only "exploited" 11 of the bunkers

    https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/...ap5_annxB.html
    Stockpiles of chemical munitions are still stored there. The most dangerous ones have been declared to the UN and are sealed in bunkers. Although declared, the bunkers contents have yet to be confirmed. These areas of the compound pose a hazard to civilians and potential blackmarketers.
    Numerous bunkers, including eleven cruciform shaped bunkers were exploited. Some of the bunkers were empty. Some of the bunkers contained large quantities of unfilled chemical munitions, conventional munitions, one-ton shipping containers, old disabled production equipment (presumed disabled under UNSCOM supervision), and other hazardous industrial chemicals. The bunkers were dual-use in storing both conventional and chemical munitions. Figure 12 is a typical side-view of a cruciform shaped bunker.
    The contents of two of the cruciform bunkers bombed during Desert Storm showed severe damage. Due to the hazards associated with this location, the UN decided to seal the bunkers.
    UNSCOM viewed the contents of the two bunkers; however an accurate inventory was not possible due to the hazards associated with that environment.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: ISIS in Iraq seizes control of Saddam Husseinís chemical weapons facility

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    We don't know what precursors or other chemical exist at that plant or what the UN sealed up in those bunkers.
    Based on the word of an EOD buddy who was on the contract to seal up and make safe Al Muthanna in 2006, no precursors or anything that could be easily used by booger eaters to fashion operable WMDs are available on the site.

    In the bunkers, VX, GB, and Potassium Cyanide in various stages of advanced degradation.

    Any attempt by ISIS to open the sealed bunkers and extract the agents would result in immediate local (ISIS) casualties and an environmental risk to the surrounding area. Drums of chems are stored in rusting barrels that are sitting in three feet of stagnant water and chemical ooze.
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    And the epitaph drear: ďA Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.Ē

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    Re: ISIS in Iraq seizes control of Saddam Husseinís chemical weapons facility

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    I have a bottle of Ammonia and a bottle of bleach.
    Do I have WMD pre-cursors?

    You have to be able to draw a line somewhere between chemicals which are merely dangerous and chemicals which are weapons.
    Otherwise we have to say that there're thousands of tons of WMD being moved around our country by rail at this very moment. But that's not really a helpful thing to say is it? Cause those tanker cars are not really weapons. They're just containers of dangerous chemicals.
    ite.
    I was not aware that the U.S. routinely shipped Sarin, VX and Mustard as around on rail cars.

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    Re: ISIL seizes Saddam's chemical weapons plant

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You can't sell a war based on the existence of military grade WMD existing, being distributed to commanders in the field
    The funny thing is - we actually tracked that as it occurred. Then we overran their positions and they had the special arty units all set up to fire the shells that never came....


    A) The Iraq War was "sold" (argued for) on a lot more than just WMD.
    B) however,

    assert we know they have existing mobile production labs - see, there's one there, and over here are five sites we know store chemical weapons, etc.
    Yeah. We got that intel from the Germans, who had a source who had "worked" those facilities. We asked to talk to him ourselves so we could put him to the test (lie detector, human interrogation with control questions, etc), and the Germans told us he was virulently anti-American and so we couldn't talk to him. That turned out later to be a lie - no idea why they did that.

    (reread what Powell told the UN), and then when we find NONE of that, but we do find some old, degraded, unusable except for 'dirty bomb' material, pretend that's enough to justify the war.
    I don't know of anyone who is.

    If they told us old degraded stuff was the reason we went in, fine. That's not what was sold to the world.
    Well, it wasn't what they thought at the time.

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    Re: ISIS in Iraq seizes control of Saddam Husseinís chemical weapons facility

    To the victor go the spoils....

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    Re: ISIS in Iraq seizes control of Saddam Husseinís chemical weapons facility

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayton3 View Post
    I was not aware that the U.S. routinely shipped Sarin, VX and Mustard as around on rail cars.
    I guess I missed my mark with the last post. Ahh, well.


    If I am not mistaken, many chemical weapons combine precursors once activated to prevent the breakdown of the active chemical. F'rintstints, a chemical munitions may not actually contain nerve gas, but rather chemicals which when mixed together will produce nerve gas.


    Here is information which you may find interesting


    Chemical Weapons Programs - Iraq Special Weapons Facilities

    Chemical Weapons Programs: History

    Nerve Gas

    Production of the nerve gases tabun (GA) and sarin (GB) started in 1984 and the method of production changed over time in order to resolve stabilization problems. Iraq's latest declarations have reduced the stated amount of tabun produced from 250 tons to 210 tons and of sarin produced from 812 tons to 790 tons.

    The tabun produced was poor, being of a maximum purity of 60 per cent. As a result, the agent did not store well and could only be stored for a limited period.

    The sarin produced was also of poor quality (maximum purity of 60 per cent when solvent is taken into account) and so too could only be stored for short periods. In order to overcome this problem, Iraq resorted to a binary approach to weaponization: the precursor chemicals for sarin (DF 2/ and the alcohols cyclohexanol and isopropanol) were stored separately for mixing in the munitions immediately prior to use to produce a mixture of two G-series nerve agents, GB and GF. Given that the locally manufactured DF had a purity of more than 95 per cent and the alcohols were imported and of 100 per cent purity, this process could be expected to yield relatively pure sarin.

    Over the period from June 1992 to June 1994, the Commission's Chemical Destruction Group destroyed 30 tons of tabun, 70 tons of sarin and 600 tons of mustard agent, stored in bulk and in munitions.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: ISIS in Iraq seizes control of Saddam Husseinís chemical weapons facility

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    Based on the word of an EOD buddy who was on the contract to seal up and make safe Al Muthanna in 2006, no precursors or anything that could be easily used by booger eaters to fashion operable WMDs are available on the site.

    In the bunkers, VX, GB, and Potassium Cyanide in various stages of advanced degradation.

    Any attempt by ISIS to open the sealed bunkers and extract the agents would result in immediate local (ISIS) casualties and an environmental risk to the surrounding area. Drums of chems are stored in rusting barrels that are sitting in three feet of stagnant water and chemical ooze.
    What if they loaded a couple of these on a flat-bed with some C4 and drove them into Baghdad?
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