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Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’[W:202]

Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

polgara said:
In reading the link you provided, it does seem like someone other than you, your family, and your doctor will decide whether or not you meet the criteria for life-extending treatments. Perhaps "death panels" was not the best choice of words to use, but they seem apt, because if a group of strangers decides you do not qualify - using their guidelines - you will probably not be given treatment, and you will doubtless die.

Greetings, CJ. :2wave: Great weather here - hope you are enjoying same!
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Hi Lady P. - It's been chilly and overcast all day today but the sun is finally starting to come out, just in time for the moon and stars.

As for the language in the act, it will be similar to what happens here in Canada. We recently had a woman with brain cancer - in her 30s, with 2 small children, who was not given medication that would prolong her life for 6 months to a year because the committee that evaluates "value for money" in provision of medical services determined that the benefit to the woman wasn't worth the hundreds of thousands of $ the drug would have cost the system. She died a few months ago, without ever getting the drug. In another situation, a young girl has been denied a drug for her condition because the cost is about $340,000 a month - the pharma is paying 50% and the father's insurance is paying another big chunk, but the family has to come up with $60,000 a month for the balance - they are doing it through fundraising now, but the government refuses to fund it until they can reach an agreement with the pharma to lower the costs.

These are the "death panel" type decisions that are made in the system that most liberals in America toss up as the ideal.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

CaptainCourtesy said:
At times.
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I'm no lawyer, but if this happened, wouldn't a law suit be in order?

I read every word of my insusrance policies when I get them each year from my employer after we've signed up for the plans we want. I know exactly what is covered and what isn't. If they say "x" is covered, and then they deny me, I should be able to go right to my state's insurance department for assistance.

Not saying I don't believe you, but do you have examples of insurance companies denying coverage for a procedure that is in the contract with the insured party?
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

CaptainCourtesy said:
So, if it's subjective, your opinion of who should have won "Lie of the Year" is as subjective, and therefore relevant, as Politifact's, correct? Which of course means that your opinion that he should have won the award in other years has as much value as Politifact's opinion that he shouldn't, right?
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Absolutely - which is why those who consider Politifacts as some godly source of the one and only truth is just nonsense.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

The funny thing is that when you ask these Right wingers what Obama actually was dishonest about...
All you get is a bunch of BS and spin or they simply lead you back to some situation where Obama was mistaken.
The power of misinformation and Faux news combined with the ignorance of our own people is amazingly impressive.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

votemout said:
john they cannot admit to the fact that death panels are in the obummercare bill. that would mean that Fox news and other sources DID NOT LIE, and they have worked so hard to try and portray anyone that is anti obama is a liar and rayciss.
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It really can't be proven until it actually is implemented and takes effect. It won't be real for many supporters of the ACA until such time as someone on Medicaid is denied a lifesaving treatment because the value for money evaluation doesn't support it. It happens in every system where the government is directly involved in any funding of medical care.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

CaptainCourtesy said:
Your dog could do better than any of the conservatives, but hey, you stay with those idiot liars. Btw... I'm not a Democrat, but blind partisans usually just assume that if someone disagrees with them, that person must be on the other side, rather than actually examining their own positions.
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All I need to do is examine who is doing what in office and what I've seen is Obama and clan is the worst we seen in decades. I never voted for idiot Obama but I'll bet you did.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

tres borrachos said:
I'm no lawyer, but if this happened, wouldn't a law suit be in order?

I read every word of my insusrance policies when I get them each year from my employer after we've signed up for the plans we want. I know exactly what is covered and what isn't. If they say "x" is covered, and then they deny me, I should be able to go right to my state's insurance department for assistance.

Not saying I don't believe you, but do you have examples of insurance companies denying coverage for a procedure that is in the contract with the insured party?
Click to expand...

What the insurance company does is this. Let's say as a provider, I deem a medical procedure necessary for a patient. I give the insurance company all the information. THEY can then decide if THEY believe is is medically necessary. They do this without examining the patient. If they decide that it is not medically necessary (and how they would do this what with my information and no evaluation of their own) they can say, "no, we are not going to cover that". Example: I recently had a patient who had an eating disorder. Patient was binging and purging daily. Outpatient services had not worked. Day treatment services had not helped. Some of her bloodwork was off, especially her electrolytes. You HAD coverage in her policy for inpatient services, which both I and two physicians who were treating her recommended. The insurance company "decided" that it wasn't medically necessary, this without ever seeing the patient and with receiving all the labs and reports from all providers. I wish that was an isolated case, but I've seen stuff like that plenty of times.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

CanadaJohn said:
Absolutely - which is why those who consider Politifacts as some godly source of the one and only truth is just nonsense.
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OK. I can accept that.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

Kobie said:
We've been referring to them as "insurance companies" for quite some time.
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I'm glad to see you point this out. Are you claiming that government funded services act any differently and if you are, what evidence do you have that they do?
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

Born Free said:
All I need to do is examine who is doing what in office and what I've seen is Obama and clan is the worst we seen in decades. I never voted for idiot Obama but I'll bet you did.
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People, this is what partisan blinders does to someone. If you can't see that the right and the left suck equally, then the problem is yours, not anyone elses.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

CanadaJohn said:
I'm glad to see you point this out. Are you claiming that government funded services act any differently and if you are, what evidence do you have that they do?
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I don't deal with Medicare often, but I've NEVER been subjected to any denials from them. I believe others have, so YMMV.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

CaptainCourtesy said:
What are you TALKING about??? I didn't deny them coverage. I argued with the insurance company who denied them coverage. Please READ my posts before responding.
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You said you were a healthcare provider not me.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

votemout said:
You said you were a healthcare provider not me.
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Do you know what the difference is between a healthcare provider and an insurance company???
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

CaptainCourtesy said:
I don't deal with Medicare often, but I've NEVER been subjected to any denials from them. I believe others have, so YMMV.
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I ask this because a very large percentage of the newly insured under the ACA exchanges have been funneled into Medicaid. I presume, without any factual basis, only anecdotal reference to government funded health care here in Canada, that government funded health care in the US will not automatically fund all applications for cost coverage of all prescribed or requested services/medications. As such, there will be decision makers - let's call them "panels" in honour of Sarah Palin - which will evaluate the cost/benefit of providing said services/medications. In some case, perhaps not many, such decisions will lead to a denial of services/medications which could lead to a shorter life or a hastened "death". Put it all together and you end up with a "death panel".

I'd be quite pleased to see some documented proof that any life saving service/medication prescribed by a patient's physician will be honoured, without question, by the government funding body or at least by the government funded insurance coverage promoted under the ACA. It's too early in the game to see how it will play out in reality, but if there's language somewhere that suggests my understanding of the language in the ACA is wrong, I'd like to see it.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

Kobie said:
We've been referring to them as "insurance companies" for quite some time.
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Were it that simple. I know my insurance company, and this isn't them.

"Obamacare allotted $1.1 billion to set up a Research Institute, and an additional $3.8 billion for a Federal Coordinating Concil for effectiveness research by a "board" who will establish the research project agenda. There will also be an "expert advisory panel" consisting of research clinicians, patients and experts in scientific and health services research and health services delivery. The HHS Secretary in DC may limit any treatments that are not recommended by the new research institute."

So research scientists and not doctors will be deciding who gets what treatments. Your insurance company will pay, or not, based on what is decided. Reminds me of the horror movie Coma" with Genevieve Bujold and Michael Douglas! :eek: It will be most interesting to see how various ethnic groups, with their unique DNA, are handled, won't it?
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

CanadaJohn said:
I ask this because a very large percentage of the newly insured under the ACA exchanges have been funneled into Medicaid. I presume, without any factual basis, only anecdotal reference to government funded health care here in Canada, that government funded health care in the US will not automatically fund all applications for cost coverage of all prescribed or requested services/medications. As such, there will be decision makers - let's call them "panels" in honour of Sarah Palin - which will evaluate the cost/benefit of providing said services/medications. In some case, perhaps not many, such decisions will lead to a denial of services/medications which could lead to a shorter life or a hastened "death". Put it all together and you end up with a "death panel".

I'd be quite pleased to see some documented proof that any life saving service/medication prescribed by a patient's physician will be honoured, without question, by the government funding body or at least by the government funded insurance coverage promoted under the ACA. It's too early in the game to see how it will play out in reality, but if there's language somewhere that suggests my understanding of the language in the ACA is wrong, I'd like to see it.
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From what I understand, a lot of the newly insured under ACA are being funneled into government approved private insurance plans. These would be subjected to the same reviews as other private insurance plans, one of the reasons that I am not fond of ACA. But you are correct... it is far to early to tell what kind of impact ACA will have on insurance coverage and denials.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

Painter said:
The funny thing is that when you ask these Right wingers what Obama actually was dishonest about...
All you get is a bunch of BS and spin or they simply lead you back to some situation where Obama was mistaken.
The power of misinformation and Faux news combined with the ignorance of our own people is amazingly impressive.
Click to expand...


Mistaken? hilarious.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

CanadaJohn said:
Hi Lady P. - It's been chilly and overcast all day today but the sun is finally starting to come out, just in time for the moon and stars.

As for the language in the act, it will be similar to what happens here in Canada. We recently had a woman with brain cancer - in her 30s, with 2 small children, who was not given medication that would prolong her life for 6 months to a year because the committee that evaluates "value for money" in provision of medical services determined that the benefit to the woman wasn't worth the hundreds of thousands of $ the drug would have cost the system. She died a few months ago, without ever getting the drug. In another situation, a young girl has been denied a drug for her condition because the cost is about $340,000 a month - the pharma is paying 50% and the father's insurance is paying another big chunk, but the family has to come up with $60,000 a month for the balance - they are doing it through fundraising now, but the government refuses to fund it until they can reach an agreement with the pharma to lower the costs.

These are the "death panel" type decisions that are made in the system that most liberals in America toss up as the ideal.
Click to expand...

And it will doubtless continue until they, or a member of their own family, doesn't meet the established criteria! Then there will be Hell to pay!
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

CaptainCourtesy said:
From what I understand, a lot of the newly insured under ACA are being funneled into government approved private insurance plans. These would be subjected to the same reviews as other private insurance plans, one of the reasons that I am not fond of ACA. But you are correct... it is far to early to tell what kind of impact ACA will have on insurance coverage and denials.
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I appreciate this - so is there some language in the contracts or arrangements that HHS has with insurers who provide those who are medicaid eligible under the new criteria that requires those insurers not act as they've always acted? We're getting deep in the weeds here, but bottom line from my perspective is that no insurer, whether private or the government, makes treatment approval decisions that are not also based on a cost/benefit analysis. That lends credence to the position that the HHS panel under the ACA will indeed be making decisions on treatment that could result in some patients dying before medically necessary.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

CanadaJohn said:
I appreciate this - so is there some language in the contracts or arrangements that HHS has with insurers who provide those who are medicaid eligible under the new criteria that requires those insurers not act as they've always acted? We're getting deep in the weeds here, but bottom line from my perspective is that no insurer, whether private or the government, makes treatment approval decisions that are not also based on a cost/benefit analysis. That lends credence to the position that the HHS panel under the ACA will indeed be making decisions on treatment that could result in some patients dying before medically necessary.
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Don't really know since I do not deal with Medicaid and never have. If I were to take a guess, I'd say that unless specific wording prohibits it, any insurance company, private or governmental, would have some kind of review system that could deny access to benefits on their whim, even over the objections and documentation of the actual provider treating the patient. This is my major issue with health insurance companies and one thing that ACA really doesn't address as much as I would like. I haven't had the same experience with governmental health care, but others have. The term "death panels", however, is an idiotic partisan term, and the accusation that ACA reviewing patient care as being "new" is idiotic. Private insurance invented and has been playing that game for ages.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

eohrnberger said:
I guess it just takes some additional time to realize the reality, where as others see it coming.
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The media can only run cover for him for so long.
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

NIMBY said:
I'm sure the Nation will reflect on this in new polls in two weeks--
90 or so Obama officials knew of the Bergdahl swap and none of them leaked it--
yet give this congress one piece of confidential info and what happens??
now we know who brings the trust -
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Which of those 90 people outted the station chief in Afghanistan?
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

CaptainCourtesy said:
What the insurance company does is this. Let's say as a provider, I deem a medical procedure necessary for a patient. I give the insurance company all the information. THEY can then decide if THEY believe is is medically necessary. They do this without examining the patient. If they decide that it is not medically necessary (and how they would do this what with my information and no evaluation of their own) they can say, "no, we are not going to cover that". Example: I recently had a patient who had an eating disorder. Patient was binging and purging daily. Outpatient services had not worked. Day treatment services had not helped. Some of her bloodwork was off, especially her electrolytes. You HAD coverage in her policy for inpatient services, which both I and two physicians who were treating her recommended. The insurance company "decided" that it wasn't medically necessary, this without ever seeing the patient and with receiving all the labs and reports from all providers. I wish that was an isolated case, but I've seen stuff like that plenty of times.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing that CC.

Are you a doctor?
 
Re: Gallup: Majority Says Obama Not ‘Honest and Trustworthy’

Painter said:
The funny thing is that when you ask these Right wingers what Obama actually was dishonest about...
All you get is a bunch of BS and spin or they simply lead you back to some situation where Obama was mistaken.
The power of misinformation and Faux news combined with the ignorance of our own people is amazingly impressive.
Click to expand...

Huh? We're talking about one specific lie in the last 15 pages or so. But there are plenty of others.

How about when he said Fast and Furious began under Bush (it didn't)?
How about his lie about how many jobs the Keystone pipeline would create when in fact he had evidence to the contrary?
How about closing Gitmo?
How about his promise not to have lobbyists in his administration (by 2010 he had at least 40)?
How about when he said he had Congress' support to carry out intervention in Libya (remember when Dennis Kucinich busted him on that)?

There's just a very small sampling.
 
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