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More NSA Secrets Revealed

Hatuey said:
Just so you know, the US doesn't really need to collect data. It's usually just bought from the sites you willingly give it to without reading their TOS. What? You think FB makes money on gifts or your Pinterest account is not being cataloged, packaged and sold to anyone who will buy it? Pay better attention to the ads that show up on your page from now on.
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I realize what private corporations do. But collecting information and spying on people not only here but worldwide (IMO) is whole nother deck of cards than from the US government collecting data on people and spying on innocent people.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Yes. Is Big Brother the dog whistle for you to mean "bad"?
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When you are collecting over a million of innocent Pols data just because. When you are spying on world leader allies, 71 million communication in Poland, partnering with US corporations to collect info to make them run through NSA monitors, implanting bugs into foreign servers, and are "collecting it all". Hell they admitted to having so much info they couldnt handle it all!


Yes.
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Well lets just say **** it to a much basic human right and the sacred American right we hold dear.



lol what? Diplomatic immunity covers every citizen of every country now? And, let me guess, the 4th Amendment covers every US citizen? Who should intelligence agencies collect on?
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*cough cough* NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders after US official handed over contacts | World news | The Guardian


Times Square?
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A Vietnamese local vendor was paid by the NSA?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
When you are collecting over a million of innocent Pols data just because. When you are spying on world leader allies, 71 million communication in Poland, partnering with US corporations to collect info to make them run through NSA monitors, implanting bugs into foreign servers, and are "collecting it all". Hell they admitted to having so much info they couldnt handle it all!



Well lets just say **** it to a much basic human right and the sacred American right we hold dear.




*cough cough* NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders after US official handed over contacts | World news | The Guardian



A Vietnamese local vendor was paid by the NSA?
Click to expand...

What is it, again, that you think intelligence agencies should do?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
I realize what private corporations do. But collecting information and spying on people not only here but worldwide (IMO) is whole nother deck of cards than from the US government collecting data on people and spying on innocent people.
Click to expand...

What? You think the US government can't buy Facebook's info on it's Pakistan users? That it actually has infrastructure in place to monitor every call? Look, even the most ardent opponents of this sort of thing have to admit that the US monitors maybe, maybe 500-1000 people in the country. Most of them with clear and evident ties to terrorist groups. The NSA people aren't sitting around reading every single bs e-mail people send trying to get laid. It's not reading text messages about how great last night was. Most of those are filtered out by algorithms and strings of words that they're specifically looking for. Again, this isn't even coming from an NSA apologist. This is coming from the very people who are against this sort of thing. So rest easy, unless you're sending e-mails to a guy in Pakistan asking for bomb making material or asking a guy in Mali about the package that needed to be delivered to a suburban address in Ohio, the NSA doesn't really care about your coffee group at Starbucks or your university's socialist club.
 
I've got to agree that I'm not overly worried about being singled out of hundreds of millions of online users. Even the best software still needs human interaction, and they're simply not going to investigate every hit. Most likely, a majority of the info is just being recorded to look up if needed later for investigative purposes.
 
Hatuey said:
What? You think the US government can't buy Facebook's info on it's Pakistan users?
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No. I dont think that. I think its wrong that they can do that. I think its wrong that they can go around the companies backs to do this. Hell I think its wrong for some of the companies that knowingly allow this to happen, I think that is wrong as well.

Look, even the most ardent opponents of this sort of thing have to admit that the US monitors maybe, maybe 500-1000 people in the country.
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I'm not a absolutist. I realize the reason to have an intelligence agency in the country. Im pointing out that what we have is way more than that. We currently have a system that pretty much goes unchecked that collects millions upon millions of communications here in the US... What ever happened to privacy? Then hell in a country of Poland, (i know they are radicals there) 71 milion in Poland!

Most of them with clear and evident ties to terrorist groups.
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Really? Not according to many reports... Hell reports claim that study this, not a single attack has been stopped because of this...

The NSA people aren't sitting around reading every single bs e-mail people send trying to get laid. It's not reading text messages about how great last night was.
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****. It wasnt?
Top-Secret Document Reveals NSA Spied On Porn Habits As Part Of Plan To Discredit 'Radicalizers'
NSA admits employees spied on husbands, boyfriends, and girlfriends | PCWorld

Most of those are filtered out by algorithms and strings of words that they're specifically looking for. Again, this isn't even coming from an NSA apologist.
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Something tells me from the informatino that has been revelaed says that is total bullsht. Reports say they were pretty much free at will and knowingly abused their power..

This is coming from the very people who are against this sort of thing. So rest easy, unless you're sending e-mails to a guy in Pakistan asking for bomb making material or asking a guy in Mali about the package that needed to be delivered to a suburban address in Ohio, the NSA doesn't really care about your coffee group at Starbucks or your university's socialist club.
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A lot of Polish people must be about ready to do something crazy! Maybe invade Germany for sweet sweet revenge!?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
No. I dont think that. I think its wrong that they can do that. I think its wrong that they can go around the companies backs to do this. Hell I think its wrong for some of the companies that knowingly allow this to happen, I think that is wrong as well.

I'm not a absolutist. I realize the reason to have an intelligence agency in the country. Im pointing out that what we have is way more than that. We currently have a system that pretty much goes unchecked that collects millions upon millions of communications here in the US... What ever happened to privacy? Then hell in a country of Poland, (i know they are radicals there) 71 milion in Poland!

Really? Not according to many reports... Hell reports claim that study this, not a single attack has been stopped because of this...

****. It wasnt?
Top-Secret Document Reveals NSA Spied On Porn Habits As Part Of Plan To Discredit 'Radicalizers'
NSA admits employees spied on husbands, boyfriends, and girlfriends | PCWorld

Something tells me from the informatino that has been revelaed says that is total bullsht. Reports say they were pretty much free at will and knowingly abused their power..

A lot of Polish people must be about ready to do something crazy! Maybe invade Germany for sweet sweet revenge!?
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Taking instances of rogue employees using their position to spy on family members hardly detracts from the point I made. If anything it proves the rule. Again, read your own links instead of just posting silly-nilly and thinking those link prove anything:

Top-Secret Document Reveals NSA Spied On Porn Habits As Part Of Plan To Discredit 'Radicalizers'

The NSA document, dated Oct. 3, 2012, repeatedly refers to the power of charges of hypocrisy to undermine such a messenger. “A previous SIGINT" -- or signals intelligence, the interception of communications -- "assessment report on radicalization indicated that radicalizers appear to be particularly vulnerable in the area of authority when their private and public behaviors are not consistent,” the document argues.
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The NSA picked out a few radical Muslims and sought to undermine their presence in their groups. There is nothing even remotely wrong with that. It'd be no different than what it did to the KKK or what it does to members of the NBP. If you think there is something wrong with undermining the power of radical clerics, I'd love to hear it. :)

NSA admits employees spied on husbands, boyfriends, and girlfriends | PCWorld

The letter from NSA Inspector General George Ellard, released Thursday by Senator Charles E. Grassley, cites 12 "substantiated instances" of the intentional misuse of the signals intelligence (SIGINT) powers of the NSA.
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Again, 12, count them TWELVE examples of employees using their position to spy on their significant others, being caught and fired. Does that prove the NSA cares about your sexting? No. It proves that there are people who can violate the code of ethics even within the NSA. It also proves that when they do it, they usually do it to people they know. :shrug:

What I really enjoy about your post is this sentence: What ever happened to privacy?

Well let's see, you're currently on a website that you've written 17,000 posts on in 3 years. You've also posted a link to your Tumblr account. A Tumblr account that could probably be tied to a few other social media sites you use. If I did a little digging, I'd probably be able to find out what university you go to and probably could hire somebody to track you down to your current address. All because of stuff you've posted online. All because of stuff you WILLINGLY reveal about yourself online. All because of stuff you willingly reveal online and then complain that it's being bought, cataloged and kept somewhere.

Easy solution to your problem: Stop using the internet. Cut up your credit cards. Leave school. Hide in Montana. Become the Una-bomber Part II and hope that you cut all links to society. If you don't? You can still be tracked down by information you willingly use and reveal every day. That debit card you have? The bank sells your purchase history. That driver's license you have? It's indirectly tied to your credit score. The clothes you're wearing? They're part of the statistics kept and sold by clothing companies. What's weird is that you're pretty much tracked down every single moment of the day by corporations and government agencies without noticing and you don't complain. The NSA collecting information on people with ties to Al-Qaeda? All hell must break lose.
 
I'm not going to pretend that I understand the full extent of what is being done, or the extent to which it may or may not affect national security. That's way above my experience, education, and pay grade.

I do know, however, that the first time NSA spying on its own citizens came to light in 2004-2005, the Bush administration threatened newspapers not to break the story and persecuted whistleblowers. After the story broke nationally, they basically minimized what was actually being done, and flat-out lied about it.

Remember Obama's campaign rallying cry, "I promise more transparency in government. Under my watch, the government will not be spying on its own citizens" (slightly paraphrased because my memory isn't perfect, but context is quite correct)? The Bush administration's NSA brouhaha was what he was referring to.

Fast forward to 2009, Obama is inaugurated and briefed on the NSA "data mining" project. Did he say, hell no, this is illegal and must stop? No, he did not. He said, wow, this is like, really cool! And he just kept on with the same Bush/NSA data mining policies. And then came Snowden (who is a traitor, btw, and gets no pass from me for betraying his country). Suddenly, everyone had a collective brain-fart about the fact that Bush had not only been doing the same thing, but actually established the NSA data mining in the first place... and it's "Gawk!!!! Obama is evil!!!!"

Well, yeah, he is evil. So was Bush. So is everyone involved in this mess for the past decade, because the information goldmine was too yummy for anyone in a position of power to pass up.

This isn't an Obama problem; it isn't a Bush problem. It's a governmental problem that will continue to transfer from president to president to president until and unless we actually end up with a commander in chief who isn't afraid to pull the plug on this totally illegal, wholly unconstitutional betrayal of the American people.

If you're interested in an in depth study of the NSA data mining project from inception to present, take a look at Frontline: The United States of Secrets (Parts I and II)
 
DiAnna said:
I'm not going to pretend that I understand the full extent of what is being done, or the extent to which it may or may not affect national security. That's way above my experience, education, and pay grade.

I do know, however, that the first time NSA spying on its own citizens came to light in 2004-2005, the Bush administration threatened newspapers not to break the story and persecuted whistleblowers. After the story broke nationally, they basically minimized what was actually being done, and flat-out lied about it.

Remember Obama's campaign rallying cry, "I promise more transparency in government. Under my watch, the government will not be spying on its own citizens" (slightly paraphrased because my memory isn't perfect, but context is quite correct)? The Bush administration's NSA brouhaha was what he was referring to.

Fast forward to 2009, Obama is inaugurated and briefed on the NSA "data mining" project. Did he say, hell no, this is illegal and must stop? No, he did not. He said, wow, this is like, really cool! And he just kept on with the same Bush/NSA data mining policies. And then came Snowden (who is a traitor, btw, and gets no pass from me for betraying his country). Suddenly, everyone had a collective brain-fart about the fact that Bush had not only been doing the same thing, but actually established the NSA data mining in the first place... and it's "Gawk!!!! Obama is evil!!!!"

Well, yeah, he is evil. So was Bush. So is everyone involved in this mess for the past decade, because the information goldmine was too yummy for anyone in a position of power to pass up.

This isn't an Obama problem; it isn't a Bush problem. It's a governmental problem that will continue to transfer from president to president to president until and unless we actually end up with a commander in chief who isn't afraid to pull the plug on this totally illegal, wholly unconstitutional betrayal of the American people.

If you're interested in an in depth study of the NSA data mining project from inception to present, take a look at Frontline: The United States of Secrets (Parts I and II)
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I'm afraid data mining emails, texts and phone calls is minor compared to some of the stuff they've been doing in the name of National Security.

A little known story came out after the WH published an NSA report saying that "(2) Governments should not use their offensive cyber capabilities to change the amounts held in financial accounts or otherwise manipulate the financial systems." When asked if that's what they've been doing, they responded with, the NSA admitted to tracking financial information but only as it related to terrorist financing and terror networks. It states, "This information is collected through regulatory, law enforcement, diplomatic, and intelligence channels, as well as through undertakings with cooperating foreign allies and partners."

In 2008, the Wall Street Journal reported on “so-called 'black programs' whose existence is undisclosed.” Many of them “began years before the 9/11 attacks but have since been given greater reach. Among them, current and former intelligence officials say, is a longstanding Treasury Department program to collect individual financial data including wire transfers and credit-card transactions.” If one government agency has the data, then they all do.

The rest of the story can be read here... Is the NSA Changing Bank Accounts?

If this is old information that we know about.. god knows what they're really up too currently? Privacy, citizen, rights, laws and Constitution are all terms becoming open to interpretation, especially when they invent phrases like "War on Terror". What the hell does that really mean, security at any costs thru absolute power of government?
 
grip said:
I'm afraid data mining emails, texts and phone calls is minor compared to some of the stuff they've been doing in the name of National Security.

A little known story came out after the WH published an NSA report saying that "(2) Governments should not use their offensive cyber capabilities to change the amounts held in financial accounts or otherwise manipulate the financial systems." When asked if that's what they've been doing, they responded with, the NSA admitted to tracking financial information but only as it related to terrorist financing and terror networks. It states, "This information is collected through regulatory, law enforcement, diplomatic, and intelligence channels, as well as through undertakings with cooperating foreign allies and partners."

In 2008, the Wall Street Journal reported on “so-called 'black programs' whose existence is undisclosed.” Many of them “began years before the 9/11 attacks but have since been given greater reach. Among them, current and former intelligence officials say, is a longstanding Treasury Department program to collect individual financial data including wire transfers and credit-card transactions.” If one government agency has the data, then they all do.

The rest of the story can be read here... Is the NSA Changing Bank Accounts?

If this is old information that we know about.. god knows what they're really up too currently? Privacy, citizen, rights, laws and Constitution are all terms becoming open to interpretation, especially when they invent phrases like "War on Terror". What the hell does that really mean, security at any costs thru absolute power of government?
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the only way to stop the madness is to end the war on terror.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
the only way to stop the madness is to end the war on terror.
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The problem is that it wasn't nothing new. We've been actively engaging and defending against terrorist acts, since at least the 70's.

The gov't used a terrible act to invent a new catch phrase and reason to grab more power. That shouldn't be such a surprise, since we all know politicians are power hungry and the reason they run for office.

They need to end the intensity of actively prosecuting Terrorists and go back to surveillance and reacting to serious threats. This crazy targeting and drone killing is absolutely horrendous. The amount of money and resources we implemented could probably pay off half the Natl Debt. We used a tank to swat a mosquito.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Nothing has been exposed because of this. Its unnecessary and unconstitutional.
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Really? That is a rather daring assessment. But the attitude is clear, though, I fear very dangerous.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
When you are collecting over a million of innocent Pols data just because. When you are spying on world leader allies, 71 million communication in Poland, partnering with US corporations to collect info to make them run through NSA monitors, implanting bugs into foreign servers, and are "collecting it all". Hell they admitted to having so much info they couldnt handle it all!
Click to expand...

Was there a question in there? What do you think it is that intelligence agencies should do?

Well lets just say **** it to a much basic human right and the sacred American right we hold dear.
Click to expand...

What do you think it is that intelligence agencies should do?

*cough cough* NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders after US official handed over contacts | World news | The Guardian
Click to expand...

What do you think it is that intelligence agencies should do?

A Vietnamese local vendor was paid by the NSA?
Click to expand...

You asked and I answered. What do you think it is that intelligence agencies should do?
 
Hatuey said:
../The NSA picked out a few radical Muslims and sought to undermine their presence in their groups. There is nothing even remotely wrong with that. It'd be no different than what it did to the KKK or what it does to members of the NBP. If you think there is something wrong with undermining the power of radical clerics, I'd love to hear it. ...
Click to expand...

COINTELPRO (an acronym for COunter INTELligence PROgram) was a series of covert, and at times illegal,[1] projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveying, infiltrating, discrediting, and disrupting domestic political organizations.[2] National Security Agency operation Project MINARET targeted the personal communications of leading Americans, including Senators Frank Church and Howard Baker, civil rights leaders, including Dr. Martin Luther King, journalists and athletes who criticized the Vietnam War.[3][4]

"....covert operations under the official COINTELPRO label took place between 1956 and 1971.[5] COINTELPRO tactics are still used to this day, and have been alleged to include discrediting targets through psychological warfare; smearing individuals and groups using forged documents and by planting false reports in the media; harassment; wrongful imprisonment; and illegal violence, including assassination.[6][7][8] The FBI's stated motivation was "protecting national security, preventing violence, and maintaining the existing social and political order.[sic.]"[9]

FBI records show that 85% of COINTELPRO resources targeted groups and individuals that the FBI deemed "subversive",[10] including communist and socialist organizations; organizations and individuals associated with the Civil Rights Movement, including Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and others associated with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and the Congress of Racial Equality and other civil rights organizations; black nationalist groups; the American Indian Movement; a broad range of organizations labeled "New Left", including Students for a Democratic Society and the Weathermen; almost all groups protesting the Vietnam War, as well as individual student demonstrators with no group affiliation; the National Lawyers Guild; organizations and individuals associated with the women's rights movement; nationalist groups such as those seeking independence for Puerto Rico, United Ireland, and Cuban exile movements including Orlando Bosch's Cuban Power and the Cuban Nationalist Movement; and additional notable Americans —even Albert Einstein, who was a socialist and a member of several civil rights groups, came under FBI surveillance during the years just before COINTELPRO's official inauguration.[11] The remaining 15% of COINTELPRO resources were expended to marginalize and subvert white hate groups, including the Ku Klux Klan and the National States' Rights Party...."
 
Hatuey said:
Taking instances of rogue employees using their position to spy on family members hardly detracts from the point I made. If anything it proves the rule. Again, read your own links instead of just posting silly-nilly and thinking those link prove anything:

Top-Secret Document Reveals NSA Spied On Porn Habits As Part Of Plan To Discredit 'Radicalizers'



The NSA picked out a few radical Muslims and sought to undermine their presence in their groups. There is nothing even remotely wrong with that. It'd be no different than what it did to the KKK or what it does to members of the NBP. If you think there is something wrong with undermining the power of radical clerics, I'd love to hear it. :)

NSA admits employees spied on husbands, boyfriends, and girlfriends | PCWorld



Again, 12, count them TWELVE examples of employees using their position to spy on their significant others, being caught and fired. Does that prove the NSA cares about your sexting? No. It proves that there are people who can violate the code of ethics even within the NSA. It also proves that when they do it, they usually do it to people they know. :shrug:

What I really enjoy about your post is this sentence: What ever happened to privacy?

Well let's see, you're currently on a website that you've written 17,000 posts on in 3 years. You've also posted a link to your Tumblr account. A Tumblr account that could probably be tied to a few other social media sites you use. If I did a little digging, I'd probably be able to find out what university you go to and probably could hire somebody to track you down to your current address. All because of stuff you've posted online. All because of stuff you WILLINGLY reveal about yourself online. All because of stuff you willingly reveal online and then complain that it's being bought, cataloged and kept somewhere.

Easy solution to your problem: Stop using the internet. Cut up your credit cards. Leave school. Hide in Montana. Become the Una-bomber Part II and hope that you cut all links to society. If you don't? You can still be tracked down by information you willingly use and reveal every day. That debit card you have? The bank sells your purchase history. That driver's license you have? It's indirectly tied to your credit score. The clothes you're wearing? They're part of the statistics kept and sold by clothing companies. What's weird is that you're pretty much tracked down every single moment of the day by corporations and government agencies without noticing and you don't complain. The NSA collecting information on people with ties to Al-Qaeda? All hell must break lose.
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Show us how it doesn't matter by posting your phone bills online.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
.... "Hey dont spy on us, spy on other innocent people". Pretty hypocritical. Most "libertarians" are "libertarian" where they see fit.
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They aren't hypocrites, they consider it OK to do to others what they wouldn't want done to them. The essence of conservatism and libertariansim is fear and selfishness: "me first."
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
the only way to stop the madness is to end the war on terror.
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We have the Russians and Chinese standing by to resume their role as our enemy again if the current deal with the Muslim extremists falls through.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Nothing has been exposed because of this. Its unnecessary and unconstitutional.
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What is wrong with people? Of course there are challenges in using new and powerful technology. Of course the impacts of a powerful tool can be dangerous. We know that. Nothing new there.

That isn't the question. The question is how to control it, while utilizing its potential.
 
Hard Truth said:
Show us how it doesn't matter by posting your phone bills online.
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I don't have to. They can be bought and purchased from my provider. :shrug:
 
Hard Truth said:
COINTELPRO (an acronym for COunter INTELligence PROgram) was a series of covert, and at times illegal,[1] projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveying, infiltrating, discrediting, and disrupting domestic political organizations.[2] National Security Agency operation Project MINARET targeted the personal communications of leading Americans, including Senators Frank Church and Howard Baker, civil rights leaders, including Dr. Martin Luther King, journalists and athletes who criticized the Vietnam War.[3][4]

"....covert operations under the official COINTELPRO label took place between 1956 and 1971.[5] COINTELPRO tactics are still used to this day, and have been alleged to include discrediting targets through psychological warfare; smearing individuals and groups using forged documents and by planting false reports in the media; harassment; wrongful imprisonment; and illegal violence, including assassination.[6][7][8] The FBI's stated motivation was "protecting national security, preventing violence, and maintaining the existing social and political order.[sic.]"[9]

FBI records show that 85% of COINTELPRO resources targeted groups and individuals that the FBI deemed "subversive",[10] including communist and socialist organizations; organizations and individuals associated with the Civil Rights Movement, including Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and others associated with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and the Congress of Racial Equality and other civil rights organizations; black nationalist groups; the American Indian Movement; a broad range of organizations labeled "New Left", including Students for a Democratic Society and the Weathermen; almost all groups protesting the Vietnam War, as well as individual student demonstrators with no group affiliation; the National Lawyers Guild; organizations and individuals associated with the women's rights movement; nationalist groups such as those seeking independence for Puerto Rico, United Ireland, and Cuban exile movements including Orlando Bosch's Cuban Power and the Cuban Nationalist Movement; and additional notable Americans —even Albert Einstein, who was a socialist and a member of several civil rights groups, came under FBI surveillance during the years just before COINTELPRO's official inauguration.[11] The remaining 15% of COINTELPRO resources were expended to marginalize and subvert white hate groups, including the Ku Klux Klan and the National States' Rights Party...."
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So... Martin Luther King was like Al-Qaeda? I'm not sure what your point is.
 
Zyphlin said:
I fully expect other countries to try and spy on us, and I fully expect my country to try and spy on them. The only thing we did wrong was get caught imho
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Nope. We should be open about our spying. Yes we want to know what enemies and allies alike are up to, and they should know we are looking at them and snooping on them openly. That's why we have agencies like the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency amongst a whole alphabet soup of them. Really this polite fiction we aren't doing these things needs to go the way of the dodo bird. Our government as a policy really ought to just look at playing things straight and honest instead of the Machiavellian route.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Nope. We should be open about our spying. Yes we want to know what enemies and allies alike are up to, and they should know we are looking at them and snooping on them openly. That's why we have agencies like the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency amongst a whole alphabet soup of them. Really this polite fiction we aren't doing these things needs to go the way of the dodo bird. Our government as a policy really ought to just look at playing things straight and honest instead of the Machiavellian route.
Click to expand...

spying openly?..... well, that's one way to NOT get good intelligence on anybody.
 
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