Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegiance

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

Μολὼν λαβέ;1063258356 said:

I wonder if this Texas school requires non-citizen students like foreign exchange students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance?

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That's an interesting question! I can't think that they do, since it's an oath of loyalty to our flag and our Country they are pledging allegiance to. I will check with my grandson in Houston to find out how they handle it at their school. It's Friday night and he's a teenager, so naturally he's not home now to ask him! :mrgreen:

Greetings, Mo. :2wave:

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

We had a guy in elementary school named Mike Hardy who wouldn't, or couldn't, say the pledge because he was a Jehovah Witness kid.

Ms. Haltom made him go stand in the "naughty corner out in the hall," each morning when the rest of the class recited it. As he would return from the hall to his desk, every morning, Ms. Haltom would harass him, saying the nastiest things about his parents and their religion, every step of the way. I always felt sorry for him.

Gotta love Texas education. :roll:

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

Crovax said:

Considering the pledge has to do with the country and not the govt, he doesn't seem to know what he is talking about

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Well, the Pledge used to be about the country, not the government... until the late 1950's, when government changed the Pledge to make it about religion and country, not necessarily in that order.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.... (Okay, I do.)

And to the Republic for which it stands.... (Hmmm... On any given day one half of these pledge makers hate the Republic, as it stands, and whine about it constantly.)

One nation... (Okay, I'm with that.)
Under God..... (I'm sure She appreciates that.)
Indivisible.... (So, we're pledged to never go our own ways? So much for Texas's idea of secession.)
With liberty and justice for all... (Except for poor people, blacks, gays, mexican's,stoners, atheists, and any other non-white that's not like me)

I guess I'm cool with that. But I suppose some might take issue with it.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

apdst said:

Slippery slopes suck, huh? With the court judgment that schools can do whatever the hell they want, in response to the freedom of expression of the students, they really opened Pandora's box.

IMO, this kids sounds like a spoiled little **** ass, that will make a good, obedient Libbo one day. He probably hates America...but...I certainly support his right to express himself and think it's totally ridiculous to suspend the kid, because he refuses to say The Pledge.

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The world is changing.

You should read histories of early WWI sometime, of how the men who marched off to war in its first few weeks were full of patriotic fervor as had been the case for wars for countless generations before. But something happened in WWI - the nature of war itself had changed.

During WWI any American - any American at all - who spoke up against America's involvement in the war could be (and some were) imprisoned (for up to 10 years IIRC). In the last four months of 1918, nearly 1M Americans died from the H1N1 epidemic...but President Wilson never mentioned the epidemic in public - he was afraid it would hurt morale for the war effort.

Fast forward to Vietnam, the Gulf of Tonkin incident, the napalming of civilians in villages shocking Americans to an extent the far more horrendous firebombing of Japanese cities never did...because now we had television.

Fast forward yet again to the Iraq war, and the internet, and the growing understanding that the Iraq war was not justified and was launched on false pretenses...and 100K innocent people died because of what we did.

What's the point?

Patriotism is not what it once was, doesn't mean what it once meant. There was a time before when we were not aware of what we did that was wrong. We weren't innocent...but we were ignorant. This doesn't mean that loyalty to one's nation isn't warranted up to and including giving one's life in battle...but it does mean that our loyalty is no longer blind, no longer without question. And that's why I would neither condemn nor condone that kid's actions. Besides, even as a high-schooler he's still just a kid...and I've known many kids who went from being pieces of human waste to upstanding citizens. If you'll think about it, a lot of our leaders today - on BOTH sides - were once sex-crazed, dope-smoking, long-haired, rebellious teens. Maybe you were one, too.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

apdst said:

Until it goes to the SC, it is what it is.

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And what it is a very narrow ruling that compares safety of students to wearing certain clothing. The ruling was wrong to begin with, but it would in no way apply to this case, where there is no question that his refusing to say the pledge of allegiance would not reasonably cause violence to him or anyone else.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

danarhea said:

A libbo? Did you actually read the article, or did you just look at the title of the article, and conclude that he was a liberal based on that alone? Because, if you had actually read the article, you would have read that the kid refuses to cite the pledge because he disagrees with the government spying on people! And who is doing the spying? The Obama administration, of course.

Way to go with the partisan hackery. I give you an A+ on that.

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Care to address the actual topic, or insist on making this about me? A+ on the ignorance displayed by missing the point I was making.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

roguenuke said:

And what it is a very narrow ruling that compares safety of students to wearing certain clothing. The ruling was wrong to begin with, but it would in no way apply to this case, where there is no question that his refusing to say the pledge of allegiance would not reasonably cause violence to him or anyone else.

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The ruling opened the door to all manner of abuse.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

apdst said:

IMO, this kids sounds like a spoiled little **** ass, that will make a good, obedient Libbo one day. He probably hates America.

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Since you like launching into Libbos on this one, let me mention your view--"And to the Republic_ans for which it stands .

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

apdst said:

And that would be your right. However, the Hitler Youth swore and oath to Hitler, not to Germany.

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All the same, to me America stands for freedom. It stands for everything Nazi Germany wasn't. While I appreciate the good intentions behind something like the pledge of allegiance, I'd rather not see our kids become drones of the state, absentmindedly pledging to a flag just because.

I want American kids to think for themselves. To question their government, and to take ownership of the country they live in. Don't just pledge allegiance, that's not enough. Take ownership of this great country and understand that you will one day inherit it. Don't pledge allegiance, pledge to become a leader.

Pledge to make this county better than you found it. Don't pledge to follow without using your brain. Pledge to shape this country in to something you would be proud to live in, something you would be proud to raise your own kids in.

I don't want to raise a generation of followers. To me, that's what the pledge of allegiance represents. I want to raise a generation of forward thinking leaders who will take their inheritance and make something out of it.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

Crovax said:

those are two totally unrelated things, of course thats why hes just a kid he doesn't know his poo hole from his goo hole.

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That may be true, but learning helps one distinguish poo from hole.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

`
`
Kudo's to Mason Michalec

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

Peter Grimm said:

All the same, to me America stands for freedom. It stands for everything Nazi Germany wasn't. While I appreciate the good intentions behind something like the pledge of allegiance, I'd rather not see our kids become drones of the state, absentmindedly pledging to a flag just because.

I want American kids to think for themselves. To question their government, and to take ownership of the country they live in. Don't just pledge allegiance, that's not enough. Take ownership of this great country and understand that you will one day inherit it. Don't pledge allegiance, pledge to become a leader.

Pledge to make this county better than you found it. Don't pledge to follow without using your brain. Pledge to shape this country in to something you would be proud to live in, something you would be proud to raise your own kids in.

I don't want to raise a generation of followers. To me, that's what the pledge of allegiance represents. I want to raise a generation of forward thinking leaders who will take their inheritance and make something out of it.

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So in your opinion, who should the future generations have an allegiance to? An allegiance means a "loyalty to a group, person, cause or the like". I agree that future generations should be forward thinking, but I also think that they should think about making their country better, which would result from a loyalty to the country, and a pledge to make it better.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

Crovax said:

Considering the pledge has to do with the country and not the govt, he doesn't seem to know what he is talking about

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You obviously don't know the legal history of the Pledge which is to flag and Republic, for which it stands.

Our government is a Republic. I love my country, served my country, bled for my country and don't see someone not wishing to pledge allegiance to the flag as hating the nation I served.

But it appears you don't know the history attached to the Pledge- our founders rejected such a pledge, they don't see a Pledge of ALLEGIANCE as compatible with a nation that is founded on the Right to dissent. The Pledge got it's momentum from a marketer (James Upton) wanting to sell flags and magazines to schools and students for the 400th anniversary of Columbus discovering the New World.

It wasn't until WWII the Pledge was adopted- but also during that war the Supreme Court ruled public schools couldn't require students to say the Pledge- Justice Jackson wrote in the Opinion handed down- no official grand or petty may describe any force any citizen to confess by word or act their faith... the list was politics, nationalism and religion.

The 11th Court of Appeals ruled you can't require students to stand for the Pledge.

Pretty much a long line of Fine 'love their Country' Americans not seeing reciting the Pledge as the equiv to loving your country.

Pretty much solid legal ground for not having to... eace

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

ludin said:

actually i back this kid. The school is in the wrong. if you would have read an article on this kid he is anything but what you say.
he has a reason that he is protesting it and it has to do with the overreach of the government.

Teen suspended after refusing to stand for Pledge of Allegiance | Fox News

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Actions speak louder than words, and the school's actions demonstrate that when they tell the children that americans are free, the school is lying.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

Henrin said:

If I promise my loyalty or commitment to the country how am I not pledging allegiance to the government?

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To the Republic for which it stands means the government.

The pledge is to the flag, the government and the nation as defined by said government.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

tres borrachos said:

So in your opinion, who should the future generations have an allegiance to? An allegiance means a "loyalty to a group, person, cause or the like". I agree that future generations should be forward thinking, but I also think that they should think about making their country better, which would result from a loyalty to the country, and a pledge to make it better.

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To me, there's something unnerving about 30 people reciting a pre-scripted pledge at the same time facing a flag with their hand over their hearts. It's creepy.

One can be a patriot without being a drone.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

tres borrachos said:

So in your opinion, who should the future generations have an allegiance to? An allegiance means a "loyalty to a group, person, cause or the like". I agree that future generations should be forward thinking, but I also think that they should think about making their country better, which would result from a loyalty to the country, and a pledge to make it better.

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Loyalty must not be blind. Not only that, but even for nations, loyalty must be continually earned and not abused by such things like illegal and unprovoked invasions of other nations that posed no real threat.

No one receives loyalty automatically - loyalty must be earned...continually.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

apdst said:

The ruling opened the door to all manner of abuse.

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No it didn't. Rulings only apply to very similar cases. In all likelihood, a challenge by this kid or his parents to this action will end up with the school losing because there is no legitimate "safety" concern involved with this kid not reciting the pledge. In fact, I'm pretty sure such cases have already been ruled on in the past.

Students Not Required to Participate in the Pledge of Allegiance | ACLU of Oregon

Since 1943, the law has been clear that public school students cannot be forced to recite or otherwise participate in the Pledge of Allegiance against their will. In the case West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, the Supreme Court found that the right to remain silent during the Pledge of Allegiance stems from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Just as the First Amendment protects our right to express our beliefs, it prohibits the government from compelling us to declare a belief that we do not hold.

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Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

tres borrachos said:

So in your opinion, who should the future generations have an allegiance to? An allegiance means a "loyalty to a group, person, cause or the like". I agree that future generations should be forward thinking, but I also think that they should think about making their country better, which would result from a loyalty to the country, and a pledge to make it better.

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To whomever and whatever they decide to have allegiance to. No one should be required to make a pledge to anything if they don't want to.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

Cant wait to see how the courts narrow students rights any further with this one.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

So in Texas schools you get suspended for not saying the PoA to the American flag, while in California schools you get suspended for wearing a t-shirt of an American flag.


Telling.

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

tres borrachos said:

So in your opinion, who should the future generations have an allegiance to? An allegiance means a "loyalty to a group, person, cause or the like". I agree that future generations should be forward thinking, but I also think that they should think about making their country better, which would result from a loyalty to the country, and a pledge to make it better.

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How many times must a pledge be given? Do you recite your wedding vows to your significant-other each morning?

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

apdst said:

Court: School can ban US flag shirts for safety

Left the door wide ass open to deprive students of their 1st Amendment rights.

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The thing about the majority of US flag shirts is that they are in fact a violation of flag code. But hey yeah, nobody cares about that either.:doh

Re: Texas high school suspends student — for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegia

apdst said:

Slippery slopes suck, huh? With the court judgment that schools can do whatever the hell they want, in response to the freedom of expression of the students, they really opened Pandora's box.

IMO, this kids sounds like a spoiled little **** ass, that will make a good, obedient Libbo one day. He probably hates America...but...I certainly support his right to express himself and think it's totally ridiculous to suspend the kid, because he refuses to say The Pledge.

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This is actually rather hilarious considering I got suspended for not standing for the Texas pledge back in high school. The next day dozens of people staged a sit down for it.

I'll never understand why we have to do this bull**** brainwashing. Patriotism doesn't come from mindlessly reciting a pledge every morning.