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Thread: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

  1. #41
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    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    ok.... if marriage is natural right....then can you make[by force of law] a church or a business, a private citizen [ship captain] marry you..preform ceremony?
    Would you say that freedom of religion or freedom of speech is also a "natural right"? If so, then you have two "natural rights" in conflict here. So then it would just be a matter of determining whose rights are more important to be upheld given the circumstances here.

    Since those wishing to get married have numerous other options and don't require a church at all to marry them/perform their wedding in order to be legally married, then there is no legitimate reason to force any church/clergy to violate their religious beliefs to perform a ceremony they don't approve of for this couple. Just as you may have a right to free speech, but you don't have a right to go into a church and disrupt a service or even just anyone in there by speaking within that church about whatever, whether it is speaking out against the church, ranting about something you feel the church did to wrong you or someone else, or even simply just babbling.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    someone here really LIKES TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS WHEN DEALING WITH THE CONSTITUTION!!!


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    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    No. The state will recognize my marriage but a church is private property and i have no right to acess it.
    alright, if its private property, can anyone who preforms a marriage, ..business ...ship 's captain be forced to perform a ceremony?

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    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You are mistaken. Every single right we have guaranteed by the Constitution can be limited in some way. The entire point of the Constitution is to limit the power of the government and to help in determining where exactly the rights of one person begin and the other end when it appears that their rights overlap or are in conflict.
    I stated you have natural rights and privileges

    natural from your humanity.

    privileges from government.

    natural rights NEVER violate privileges.

    privileges CAN violates natural rights.....because they are created by governments.

    any privileges which government creates that violates natural rights is unconstitutional

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    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Would you say that freedom of religion or freedom of speech is also a "natural right"? If so, then you have two "natural rights" in conflict here. So then it would just be a matter of determining whose rights are more important to be upheld given the circumstances here.

    Since those wishing to get married have numerous other options and don't require a church at all to marry them/perform their wedding in order to be legally married, then there is no legitimate reason to force any church/clergy to violate their religious beliefs to perform a ceremony they don't approve of for this couple. Just as you may have a right to free speech, but you don't have a right to go into a church and disrupt a service or even just anyone in there by speaking within that church about whatever, whether it is speaking out against the church, ranting about something you feel the church did to wrong you or someone else, or even simply just babbling.
    I am not making the point churches will be forced, ...at the root of what I am asking is......if SSM is legal....can it in any way force a citizen, business, to perform a ceremony for 2 people wanting be married?

    because force, it something government has no authority to engage it if no rights are violated, or the health and safety of the public is not at risk

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    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    someone here really LIKES TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS WHEN DEALING WITH THE CONSTITUTION!!!
    sounds like someone has been rubbed the wrong way.

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    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    I am not making the point churches will be forced, ...at the root of what I am asking is......if SSM is legal....can it in any way force a citizen, business, to perform a ceremony for 2 people wanting be married?

    because force, it something government has no authority to engage it if no rights are violated, or the health and safety of the public is not at risk
    well its the same as hetero sexual marriage so are you concerned that some 1 might be forced to marry an opposite sex couple? if not theirs no need to worry about ssm

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    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    sounds like someone has been rubbed the wrong way.
    No. Not at all. Your argument literally makes no sense. Its just typing in all caps a originalist arguments (many of which have been upheld opposite directions by the USSSC).


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    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    I am not making the point churches will be forced, ...at the root of what I am asking is......if SSM is legal....can it in any way force a citizen, business, to perform a ceremony for 2 people wanting be married?

    because force, it something government has no authority to engage it if no rights are violated, or the health and safety of the public is not at risk
    Businesses do not perform ceremonies, people do. And it has held pretty firm for the last couple hundred years that no one can force another person to perform a ceremony for someone else unless the person performing the "ceremony" is being paid by the government.

    And one of the problems we have is that this is a matter of someone's rights vs another's (actually two people's, as of right now) rights being in conflict. The details are what will determine whether the person is "forced" to perform the ceremony or not. With our laws and the Constitution, the only person who can be forced to solemnize a marriage between two people they might not agree with would be a JOP, and it would not necessarily be a ceremony (in fact, it wouldn't likely be a ceremony at all, but I have no idea really how a JOP works marriages). And the reason the JOP would be forced to do it (at least sign the marriage license, because really that is the only thing that legally matters when it comes to the legal involvement of the third most important person on the marriage license, that they sign it signifying only that the couple are consenting on their own to the marriage) would be because they are essentially state employees that maintain this responsibility for the state.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the constitution recognizes two different rights..natural rights which come from our humanity. civil rights / legal rights/ IE..privileges which are dispensed by government to the people, these privileges are to be dispensed in an equal fashion to all people [EQULITY under the law], unless [as you and I have discussed before] the state can show it is in their interest not to give a person a privilege. natural rights do not NEVER violate privileges, they have no power of force behind them to force another citizen to provide a good or service.privileges created by government do sometimes violates the natural rights of people .......because they are created by governments. therefore any privilege government creates and dispenses... which violates natural rights....life, liberty, and property of others citizen's is unconstitutional
    There seems to be some major confusion here.
    `
    1) "Natural Rights" is a theory (see: philosophy), not a legal prescription or a statutory requirement. It is NOT directly mentioned in the US Constitution or Bill of Rights.

    2) The idea of human rights is also closely and philosophically related to that of natural rights, but was also not mentioned. (Source)

    3) The word "Privileges" as mentioned in The Privileges and Immunities Clause of Article IV, Section 2 of the Constitution meaning was decided by SCOTUS in its 1869 decision, to wit;

    "It was undoubtedly the object of the clause in question to place the citizens of each State upon the same footing with citizens of other States, so far as the advantages resulting from citizenship in those States are concerned. It relieves them from the disabilities of alienage in other States; it inhibits discriminating legislation against them by other States; it gives them the right of free ingress into other States, and egress from them; it insures to them in other States the same freedom possessed by the citizens of those States in the acquisition and enjoyment of property and in the pursuit of happiness; and it secures to them in other States the equal protection of their laws"- Source

    There are no such things as "legal privileges", unless you have your own personal definition of the US Constitution.

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