Page 15 of 18 FirstFirst ... 51314151617 ... LastLast
Results 141 to 150 of 171

Thread: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

  1. #141
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 05:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    no i am not forced to operate a business, ..but i have a right to commerce...the buying and selling of goods, from those who will deal with me.

    regulations are created by government to see that the health and safety of the public is not at risk......along with tax regulations.........there are no moral regulations...that would be unlawful....because government cannot dictate morals, ..
    All laws are technically based on some morality. That morality may be based in on the views of a supermajority and put into place in a very specific way to limit certain actions that can be taken that are deemed "wrong", but it is still morality.

    For instance, there was nothing unconstitutional about Prohibition since it was in fact part of the Constitution. There was no doubt that this was a law based on morality. Ending slavery and preventing slavery from being legal in the US is based on morals that view slavery as wrong. Cruel and unusual punishment, morally wrong. Pretty much all of the rights that we have guaranteed to us are based on beliefs that something is either right or wrong, good or bad, and this belief is held by enough people that these protections have been enshrined within our Constitution, the main law of our land.

    From there, laws are meant to uphold that base morality and maintain society. So, when we say that laws shouldn't be based on morals alone, it really is that those lesser tiered laws below the Constitution need to uphold the beliefs laid down by the Constitution, not a group of people's moral beliefs without any regard to the Constitution, or worse, in a way that violates some right/rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #142
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    If you want to run a business, you have to follow the regulations that apply to that business, why does the government get to control my access to pilot privileges and not your access to cake baking privileges? Why does a self employed pilot have this control over his life but you don't? Why is regulation only for other people?

    Why is commerce a natural right and flying isn't? Flying is commerce.
    that is true you have to obey regulations on taxes, and health and safety.....their are no moral regulations.

    because there is no right to BE a pilot.......there is a right to seek to be a pilot, and in getting a license to be a pilot, for that purpose you have to obey the regulations which cover that license...just like a doctor.......who has a license.

    their is no right to BE a business owner....there is a right to seek to be a business owner....as a business owner [with a license].......it is for taxes proposes only, and regulations which cover the tax aspect of your business........other regulations cover the health and safety of the public, and your structure, product you turn out.

    by creating discrimination laws, government is dictating moral behavior, and saying it will force on a person.... if they behave in a matter government does not LIKE, making the public treat all people the same ........however government is making the people do things its is the only one that is suppose to obey.

    again in constitutional law, it is government which is clearly stated must treat everyone equal........why are people trying to make the public obey laws......which are made and intended for government only to obey?

  3. #143
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 05:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    that is true you have to obey regulations on taxes, and health and safety.....their are no moral regulations.

    because there is no right to BE a pilot.......there is a right to seek to be a pilot, and in getting a license to be a pilot, for that purpose you have to obey the regulations which cover that license...just like a doctor.......who has a license.

    their is no right to BE a business owner....there is a right to seek to be a business owner....as a business owner [with a license].......it is for taxes proposes only, and regulations which cover the tax aspect of your business........other regulations cover the health and safety of the public, and your structure, product you turn out.

    by creating discrimination laws, government is dictating moral behavior, and saying it will force on a person.... if they behave in a matter government does not LIKE, making the public treat all people the same ........however government is making the people do things its is the only one that is suppose to obey.

    again in constitutional law, it is government which is clearly stated must treat everyone equal........why are people trying to make the public obey laws......which are made and intended for government only to obey?
    Health and safety regulations can just as easily be seen as "moral regulations". It is simply that most people share the moral standard that businesses must be safe for the workers and those who are engaging in business within the actual place of business, and that there is a standard of health to be met for particular business types.

    And anti-discrimination laws treat everyone equally. You cannot discriminate against someone who is Caucasian or Asian, any more than you can someone who is African American. You cannot discriminate against a man any more than you can a woman. You cannot tell anyone that you will not do business with them due to their religious beliefs or lack there of. (Now, these are subject to the business being open to the public and some certain other considerations, but the basic application of these laws is still equal treatment.)
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #144
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    All laws are technically based on some morality. That morality may be based in on the views of a supermajority and put into place in a very specific way to limit certain actions that can be taken that are deemed "wrong", but it is still morality.

    For instance, there was nothing unconstitutional about Prohibition since it was in fact part of the Constitution. There was no doubt that this was a law based on morality. Ending slavery and preventing slavery from being legal in the US is based on morals that view slavery as wrong. Cruel and unusual punishment, morally wrong. Pretty much all of the rights that we have guaranteed to us are based on beliefs that something is either right or wrong, good or bad, and this belief is held by enough people that these protections have been enshrined within our Constitution, the main law of our land.

    From there, laws are meant to uphold that base morality and maintain society. So, when we say that laws shouldn't be based on morals alone, it really is that those lesser tiered laws below the Constitution need to uphold the beliefs laid down by the Constitution, not a group of people's moral beliefs without any regard to the Constitution, or worse, in a way that violates some right/rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
    so your saying technically morality, government can violate the rights of the people........even though government is forbidden to do so by constitutional law?

    once something is in the constitution it cannot be challenged,...HOWEVER THE 18TH was a very special amendment...why?.......because it was the only amendment to directly address and limit the people....which as i stated the constitution do not apply to people... but government only.......a citizen cannot violate the Constitution..its impossible.

    i don't disagree, about laws being made based on some type of morality........however !......you cannot make a law, no matter how good you think it is, of better it will make society if it violates constitutional law....if that were true, then abortion could be made illegal based on a morality decision by the government, but its not, its based on a woman's right to privacy, her body.

    do you wish the government if social Conservatives were to get into office... to state abortions are illegal because its not a moral thing to do.

    government is not in charge of our morals, it has not authority to tell us what behavior we must display, how much we drinlk, eat, look a tporn, or any other of those aspects..........why ?...are people willing to turn over their rights to government?...because they wish to achieve and certain outcome?

    you say "...not a group of people's moral beliefs without any regard to the Constitution"....discrimination is an emotional response..a feeling about another person.......government is not in charge of my feeling...unless i violate a right of another, most definitively government is stepping in the the morals of the people by creating such laws.

  5. #145
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Health and safety regulations can just as easily be seen as "moral regulations". It is simply that most people share the moral standard that businesses must be safe for the workers and those who are engaging in business within the actual place of business, and that there is a standard of health to be met for particular business types.

    And anti-discrimination laws treat everyone equally. You cannot discriminate against someone who is Caucasian or Asian, any more than you can someone who is African American. You cannot discriminate against a man any more than you can a woman. You cannot tell anyone that you will not do business with them due to their religious beliefs or lack there of. (Now, these are subject to the business being open to the public and some certain other considerations, but the basic application of these laws is still equal treatment.)
    how do you figure that.....

    health means things like food, consumption.

    safety means my buildings ,my product, how i store them ,my service which could hurt you physically.

    why does it seem...everything a person does these days some law is meant to cover that?

    you said--->anti-discrimination laws treat everyone equally....BINGO!!....you just said it...........treats everyone equal.........that is EQUALITY BY LAW WHEN APPLIED TO THE PUBLIC.

    equality under the law, applies to the government only...not the people....because the people do not make the laws...... government does.

    i gave you a prefect example of equality under the law.......yet..still no one understands it.

    equality under the law is not equity by laws...government making people equal thru the public..

    can you explain,...why the civil rights laws, of the 14th amendment only address governments..?

  6. #146
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 05:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    so your saying technically morality, government can violate the rights of the people........even though government is forbidden to do so by constitutional law?

    once something is in the constitution it cannot be challenged,...HOWEVER THE 18TH was a very special amendment...why?.......because it was the only amendment to directly address and limit the people....which as i stated the constitution do not apply to people... but government only.......a citizen cannot violate the Constitution..its impossible.

    i don't disagree, about laws being made based on some type of morality........however !......you cannot make a law, no matter how good you think it is, of better it will make society if it violates constitutional law....if that were true, then abortion could be made illegal based on a morality decision by the government, but its not, its based on a woman's right to privacy, her body.

    do you wish the government if social Conservatives were to get into office... to state abortions are illegal because its not a moral thing to do.

    government is not in charge of our morals, it has not authority to tell us what behavior we must display, how much we drinlk, eat, look a tporn, or any other of those aspects..........why ?...are people willing to turn over their rights to government?...because they wish to achieve and certain outcome?

    you say "...not a group of people's moral beliefs without any regard to the Constitution"....discrimination is an emotional response..a feeling about another person.......government is not in charge of my feeling...unless i violate a right of another, most definitively government is stepping in the the morals of the people by creating such laws.
    You are simply wrong. The entire point of laws is to limit what people can do.

    You are advocating basically for no laws because there are no laws that do not violate the rights of the people in some way or another.

    For the record, I generally lean just into pro-life. If I thought it could be done without the practice violating the privacy of the women and possibly forcing them to have children that put them in danger, I would be all for limiting abortions even further than we do now (going off of the in general limit of viability).

    Government isn't in charge of our morals, but the government is made up of the people and their morals. The most important moral standard we have is the US Constitution. It can be changed to reflect anything the people want as long as they go through the proper process to make those changes.

    It is when you interact with others that your actions become subject to government intervention. When your action causes harm or hardship to someone else, then your right to do something must be weighed against their rights.

    Discrimination in business practices is an action, not thoughts/feelings. Those actions may be based on thoughts or feelings, but it is the discriminatory actions that violate the laws. So no, they are not stepping into the morals there. They are promoting the general welfare of the people and maintaining a societal standard to avoid harming one group to support the "rights" of another.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #147
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    i am going to give you a hypothetical.

    lets us say marriage is a Right, can someone who wishes to marry, .....use law to force [a church].. [a private business]..... [or government] to marry them?

    and if marriage is a right.....is it [a natural right]......or is it a [legal right /civil right].....[civil rights being privileges of government]
    It's a natural right. Right to Contract is a natural right, it stems from property and life.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #148
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    05-17-17 @ 05:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,935

    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    how do you figure that.....

    health means things like food, consumption.

    safety means my buildings ,my product, how i store them ,my service which could hurt you physically.

    why does it seem...everything a person does these days some law is meant to cover that?

    you said--->anti-discrimination laws treat everyone equally....BINGO!!....you just said it...........treats everyone equal.........that is EQUALITY BY LAW WHEN APPLIED TO THE PUBLIC.

    equality under the law, applies to the government only...not the people....because the people do not make the laws...... government does.

    i gave you a prefect example of equality under the law.......yet..still no one understands it.

    equality under the law is not equity by laws...government making people equal thru the public..

    can you explain,...why the civil rights laws, of the 14th amendment only address governments..?
    You honestly have a messed up view of how law, particularly constitutional law works. You basically have how you want it to work and how it really works and are unable to recognize that they are not the same.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #149
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's a natural right. Right to Contract is a natural right, it stems from property and life.
    ok, i say your right.....can you as a person exercise a natural right over my natural right?

  10. #150
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Arkansas Judge Strikes Down State's Gay Marriage Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You honestly have a messed up view of how law, particularly constitutional law works. You basically have how you want it to work and how it really works and are unable to recognize that they are not the same.
    no it is you.....equality under the law again means government cannot make laws that apply to some people and not others.........that is the simple way to explain it!

Page 15 of 18 FirstFirst ... 51314151617 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •