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Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

EMNofSeattle said:
Restaurants are not going to go out of business.... Plus if you inject earned wealth into a class of people who don't make much they'll spend almost all of the increase, so with more dollars to spend the increases will be affordable. Also in Seattles case, if a downtown urban restaurant in a city with daytime population of over a million people has margins so thin that a 3 or 4 dollar bump in pay is going to break them then they haven't been running their business well for some time... Go visit any restaurant In downtown seattle between 8 am and 5 pm and tell me they're suffering..... There's no shortage of paying customers during the business day
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The successful businesses you are seeing is the market in equilibrium. Now along comes this large increase in labor costs, upsets the apple carts all over.

Round and round the cost increases go, until the market settles on the new set of numbers and equalizes again. Those that you wish to help won't see anything but a short term gain, only to be lost when all the other prices increase. Remember the balloon example? It really does work that way.

I still don't see how you can jump a businesses' cost by that much without them raising their prices to compensate, regardless of how well they run their business. How much experience in the Restaurant business do you have? Last I heard their margins were very thin. That being the case, there's no flexibility or ability on their part to absorb that cost increase in labor. They have little choice but to pass it on to their customers. The customers are going to react to that. More will stay home.
 
eohrnberger said:
The value placed on the work rendered is not some sort of guarantee of being able to sustain yourself. The market places a value on the work rendered, by the value that is generated from that work, the number of people who would be willing to perform that work and how much compensation they would demand for doing so. In other words market competitive wages.

Distorting that with some sort of misguided idea that mandating a higher minimum wage, and not expecting the market to react in some other negative, more undesirable manner is not being realistic.

If you envision the market being an inflated balloon, and you poke it with your finger as a mandated higher minimum wage, the balloon, i.e. market, is going to bulge out in another place.

TANSTAAFLE = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. This also applies to minimum wage hikes. They aren't free either.

In the given discussion, it was observed:


If 31.9% of the cost structure of a business jumps by double or triple, there is little choice by the business than to increase their prices to customers by a compensating amount. People aren't going to pay it. They are going to eat at home. The Restaurant will go out of business. The result will be a net loss, potentially a significant one, of economic activity to the loss of everyone.

Surely you can the cause-effect chain here.
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If the job isn't "worth" paying someone to do, perhaps the job shouldn't exist.

Restaraunts are a crappy example because the wait staff already makes well below minimum wage, under the assumption that tips will bring them up.
 
Deuce said:
It doesn't make sense to say liberals believe the minimum wage should go to $50/hour, nor does it make sense to say "if X is good, then 1000X must be 1000X better!" That's child-like logic you are displaying. You. Not me, or any other liberal on this message board. You invented the $50/hour minimum wage idea.

If it's good to eliminate some regulations, is it good to eliminate all regulations? Less regulation is good, right?
If it's good to cut taxes, is it good to cut all taxes?
If it's good to spend more on the military, is it good to spend twice as much on the military?
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I never said Libbos said that.
 
apdst said:
I never said Libbos said that.
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I'm sorry. I misunderstood. You believe that $50/hour is a good idea. I disagree, but you're free to lobby for it. That's the great thing about America, we can discuss our differences of opinion like adults and not stoop to silly namecalling.
 
eohrnberger said:
The successful businesses you are seeing is the market in equilibrium. Now along comes this large increase in labor costs, upsets the apple carts all over.

Round and round the cost increases go, until the market settles on the new set of numbers and equalizes again. Those that you wish to help won't see anything but a short term gain, only to be lost when all the other prices increase. Remember the balloon example? It really does work that way.

I still don't see how you can jump a businesses' cost by that much without them raising their prices to compensate, regardless of how well they run their business. How much experience in the Restaurant business do you have? Last I heard their margins were very thin. That being the case, there's no flexibility or ability on their part to absorb that cost increase in labor. They have little choice but to pass it on to their customers. The customers are going to react to that. More will stay home.
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I suppose if you want to destroy a business, and the jobs it provides, it's a good way as any to do it! So people have a little more money in their wallet - until they go to spend it and find that they still can't afford what they want? Are the people who think these things up living in a different reality?
 
Deuce said:
If the job isn't "worth" paying someone to do, perhaps the job shouldn't exist.

Restaraunts are a crappy example because the wait staff already makes well below minimum wage, under the assumption that tips will bring them up.
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True. And the times that I've been employed in a Restaurants the waiter or waitress were kind enough to tip their bus boys, who were also making less than minimum wage.

There are crappy jobs that are probably offered too low compensation, and then they go unfilled until the compensation is adjusted to what the market demands for that job. There are also instances in some fast food joints that are paying well above minimum wage, and those are always filled with the pick of candidates. That's kinda how a market based on competition and free will works, and efficiently allocates capital, labor and other resources. Far more efficient than any government mandated system.
 
Deuce said:
If the job isn't "worth" paying someone to do, perhaps the job shouldn't exist.

Restaraunts are a crappy example because the wait staff already makes well below minimum wage, under the assumption that tips will bring them up.
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It might not be worth $15 per hour.
 
eohrnberger said:
The value placed on the work rendered is not some sort of guarantee of being able to sustain yourself. The market places a value on the work rendered, by the value that is generated from that work, the number of people who would be willing to perform that work and how much compensation they would demand for doing so. In other words market competitive wages.

Distorting that with some sort of misguided idea that mandating a higher minimum wage, and not expecting the market to react in some other negative, more undesirable manner is not being realistic.

If you envision the market being an inflated balloon, and you poke it with your finger as a mandated higher minimum wage, the balloon, i.e. market, is going to bulge out in another place.

TANSTAAFLE = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. This also applies to minimum wage hikes. They aren't free either.

In the given discussion, it was observed:


If 31.9% of the cost structure of a business jumps by double or triple, there is little choice by the business than to increase their prices to customers by a compensating amount. People aren't going to pay it. They are going to eat at home. The Restaurant will go out of business. The result will be a net loss, potentially a significant one, of economic activity to the loss of everyone.

Surely you can the cause-effect chain here.
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What we're most likely to see...IMO...is that these jobs will go to people who are actually worth $15 and the folks who are still only worth $7 will be **** out of luck.
 
Deuce said:
I'm sorry. I misunderstood. You believe that $50/hour is a good idea. I disagree, but you're free to lobby for it. That's the great thing about America, we can discuss our differences of opinion like adults and not stoop to silly namecalling.
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It was sarcasm to illustrate a point.
 
apdst said:
What we're most likely to see...IMO...is that these jobs will go to people who are actually worth $15 and the folks who are still only worth $7 will be **** out of luck.
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Yeah, I can see that happening. Liberal / progressive ideas of what should be 'right' often implemented in government mandates has exactly the opposite effect than desired, and are often explained away as 'unintended consequences', then they are neither.
 
eohrnberger said:
The successful businesses you are seeing is the market in equilibrium. Now along comes this large increase in labor costs, upsets the apple carts all over.

Round and round the cost increases go, until the market settles on the new set of numbers and equalizes again. Those that you wish to help won't see anything but a short term gain, only to be lost when all the other prices increase. Remember the balloon example? It really does work that way.

I still don't see how you can jump a businesses' cost by that much without them raising their prices to compensate, regardless of how well they run their business. How much experience in the Restaurant business do you have? Last I heard their margins were very thin. That being the case, there's no flexibility or ability on their part to absorb that cost increase in labor. They have little choice but to pass it on to their customers. The customers are going to react to that. More will stay home.
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The economic system is not a balloon. I can call the economy a steel plate, you can push your thumb in it all you wish....

There is no evidence raising the minimum wage causes job loss. None at all. If minimum wage caused job loss, then why is it that there's a single grocery store, or restaurant in spokane washington, where the minimum wage is 2.59 higher then post falls Idaho just a mile across the state line? Why would anyone open a business in WA at all? Instead far more retail businesses operate on the WA side of the border then on the Idaho border.The majority of MW employers are service sector and those jobs are linked to their area. Seattle is a flourishing city with many new businesses.... A MW increase will not cause job loss....
 
Glen Contrarian said:
And when - when! - Seattle's economy continues to grow after the $15/hour MW is in effect, what will the conservatives say then?
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All I know is mcdonalds teenager who drools on my burger better ****ing give me better service otherwise he doesn't deserve a penny more than what he is getting already.

Better pay = better service

I demand EVERYONE being affected positively by this change up their game if they aren't doing so already, because there is a reason why someone like a relationships manager or lawyer or doctor get more money than someone who works at fast food.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
The economic system is not a balloon. I can call the economy a steel plate, you can push your thumb in it all you wish....

There is no evidence raising the minimum wage causes job loss. None at all. If minimum wage caused job loss, then why is it that there's a single grocery store, or restaurant in spokane washington, where the minimum wage is 2.59 higher then post falls Idaho just a mile across the state line? Why would anyone open a business in WA at all? Instead far more retail businesses operate on the WA side of the border then on the Idaho border.The majority of MW employers are service sector and those jobs are linked to their area. Seattle is a flourishing city with many new businesses.... A MW increase will not cause job loss....
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So in your reality, labor prices go up a significant amount, and nothing happens? I find that hard to believe. There will be a market reaction and adjustment.

Where does the money come from for those increased wages? Now granted, only minimum wage jobs are going to affected by this increase.

Why don't you elaborate as to what you think'll happen should this come to pass? How will the market adjust and compensate?
 
eohrnberger said:
So in your reality, labor prices go up a significant amount, and nothing happens? I find that hard to believe. There will be a market reaction and adjustment.

Where does the money come from for those increased wages? Now granted, only minimum wage jobs are going to affected by this increase.

Why don't you elaborate as to what you think'll happen should this come to pass? How will the market adjust and compensate?
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Well not just my reality, in reality. Again Spokane versus post falls. Which city is bigger? Which has more minimum wage service sector employment? If your theory was correct then Post Falls, ID would be a bigger city with a lower unemployment rate. Not only is Post Falls a smaller city with higher unemployment, but most of their employed people work in Spokane! How is this possible if lower wages and regulation is what causes growth?

No time has a minimum wage increase been shown to cost jobs, now maybe a 15 dollar per hour is too dramatic an increase and will cause problems, but 10 or 11, the economy wouldn't blink..... And if large businesses can't sell their products for more money as you think, then maybe Mcdonalds will settle for a measly billion in profits instead of 1.6 billion in profits. What a tragedy....
 
I say, "Good. Let Seattle do it." Then, maybe, we can see the effects in real life over theory and make a determination one way or another.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Well not just my reality, in reality. Again Spokane versus post falls. Which city is bigger? Which has more minimum wage service sector employment? If your theory was correct then Post Falls, ID would be a bigger city with a lower unemployment rate. Not only is Post Falls a smaller city with higher unemployment, but most of their employed people work in Spokane! How is this possible if lower wages and regulation is what causes growth?

No time has a minimum wage increase been shown to cost jobs, now maybe a 15 dollar per hour is too dramatic an increase and will cause problems, but 10 or 11, the economy wouldn't blink..... And if large businesses can't sell their products for more money as you think, then maybe Mcdonalds will settle for a measly billion in profits instead of 1.6 billion in profits. What a tragedy....
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So, no answer to my question of where does the money come from to pay for the increase in wages, other than a snide remark about how the company will just have to do with fewer profits.

Do you recall the fast food worker strikes earlier? Must have been over the course of the last calendar year. Big publicity in the main stream media.

You know what shut all the coverage down, and why there aren't anymore strikes?

McDonalds showed off their kiosk system which would replace all the cashiers, around 1/2 their labor force.

For the record, it's kinda a part of business to go forth and make the most money it can, increasing shareholder value, one it's objectives. McDonalds will pay prevailing wages for the labor that it needs to do it's business.

My guess is that you don't own a business, and you don't run a business. Otherwise you'd understand much more about all this than what you apparently do.

So, where is the money coming from for the increase in wages that a $15 / hr min wage would demand? How does a business deal with it's costs going up in such a significant measure?

I don't think that you've really addressed that beyond an off hand snide remark about reduced profits.

CBO says different.
Effects of the $10.10 Option on Employment and Income

Once fully implemented in the second half of 2016, the $10.10 option would reduce total employment by about 500,000 workers, or 0.3 percent, CBO projects (see the table below). As with any such estimates, however, the actual losses could be smaller or larger; in CBO’s assessment, there is about a two-thirds chance that the effect would be in the range between a very slight reduction in employment and a reduction in employment of 1.0 million workers.
44995-land-table1b.png
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The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income - CBO

And I'll wager that prices will increase to cover the difference, which means that the customers are going to have to pay more, which means that the customers will be buying less, which means that there'll be a drop in demand for whatever it is that the min wage workers are doing.
 
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I believe it is an Obligation of the general government to pay the debts of even the several United States, especially when promoting federal Standards.
 
eohrnberger said:
So, no answer to my question of where does the money come from to pay for the increase in wages, other than a snide remark about how the company will just have to do with fewer profits.

Do you recall the fast food worker strikes earlier? Must have been over the course of the last calendar year. Big publicity in the main stream media.

You know what shut all the coverage down, and why there aren't anymore strikes?

McDonalds showed off their kiosk system which would replace all the cashiers, around 1/2 their labor force.

For the record, it's kinda a part of business to go forth and make the most money it can, increasing shareholder value, one it's objectives. McDonalds will pay prevailing wages for the labor that it needs to do it's business.

My guess is that you don't own a business, and you don't run a business. Otherwise you'd understand much more about all this than what you apparently do.

So, where is the money coming from for the increase in wages that a $15 / hr min wage would demand? How does a business deal with it's costs going up in such a significant measure?

I don't think that you've really addressed that beyond an off hand snide remark about reduced profits.

CBO says different.
The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income - CBO

And I'll wager that prices will increase to cover the difference, which means that the customers are going to have to pay more, which means that the customers will be buying less, which means that there'll be a drop in demand for whatever it is that the min wage workers are doing.
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So we can regulate automation just as easily as wages. You haven't suggested an unsolvable problem. Businesses have flourished with far lower corporate profits in the past when taxes were higher and the minimum wage worth more when adjusted for inflation.

I've suggested exactly where the money will come from, higher paid workers will spend more money on slightly higher prices and businesses will have to eat some of the increase to keep business they would otherwise lose.

You still haven't explained why states with higher minimum wages have lower rates of unemployment and more business presence then states that only have the federal minimum
 
EMNofSeattle said:
So we can regulate automation just as easily as wages. You haven't suggested an unsolvable problem. Businesses have flourished with far lower corporate profits in the past when taxes were higher and the minimum wage worth more when adjusted for inflation.

I've suggested exactly where the money will come from, higher paid workers will spend more money on slightly higher prices and businesses will have to eat some of the increase to keep business they would otherwise lose.

You still haven't explained why states with higher minimum wages have lower rates of unemployment and more business presence then states that only have the federal minimum
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My guess would be population density / location, for as long as that lasts.

Most noticeable is that businesses fleeing California due to their business hostile regulations, high taxation and high cost of doing business. Just this week Toyota announced they were moving to Texas.
 
eohrnberger said:
My guess would be population density / location, for as long as that lasts.

Most noticeable is that businesses fleeing California due to their business hostile regulations, high taxation and high cost of doing business. Just this week Toyota announced they were moving to Texas.
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you can think of a handful of companies that left, plenty of companies are also locating to california, and plenty of businesses and startups are in Washington as well . and virtually none of Toyotas workers are working for minimum wage. and what the righties ignore, is that Toyota USA's factory is already in Texas and the move was to move corporate headquarters nearer to their plant, virtually no major manufacturing was done in CA. are you telling me toyotas corporate execs and senior management were making MW and so toyota moved to take advantage of a lower wage?
 
Glen Contrarian said:
And YOUR judgement is grossly flawed - why? What you're not getting is that the REASON that Costco has a historically low turnover and concomitant training costs is because they pay a lot more...and the REASON that Sam's Club has a historically high turnover and concomitant training costs is that they pay Wal-Mart wages.

Or what part of "people like to stay where they get paid more and leave from where they get paid less" do you not get?
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YOu're doing exactly what the people who did the study and creating a scenario to sudy that gives the results you/they want. This study CHOSE two places where the differences between them was so dramatic and fulyy supported the hypothesis that they started with. It's was a goal-based study and not one that was that intended to find truth. If the idea that you and they support is so easily proven, then why use such an easily attacked methodology?? Why not take tow comparable groups of companies study them in aggregate and see how the changes effected not only them, but the communities they occupy as well?? Given a choice of doing a study the right way and doing it the wrong way, they chose the wrong way. That choice alone should send up red flags for everyone who wants to know the truth instead of just being "proven" right. Seek truth in all things, even when it makes you wrong.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Y'know, look at Hawaii sometime, the land where milk is $9/gallon and house prices are hideous. Just because prices are higher doesn't mean the market can't bear it.

And market forces are universal, right? The law of supply and demand apply everywhere, right? Then why is it that when I go to a third-world nation, Starbucks costs almost as much as it does here? Why is it that food still costs almost as much as it does here? Why is it that cars and electronics cost twice what they do here? This is despite the fact that poverty is so rampant in such places.

My point is, the fear that higher wages automatically results in higher prices is not an iron law - it is not an infallible rule of economics. If it were, then why is food not much more expensive here in high-cost Puget Sound as it is in the poverty-ridden MS Delta? Why are the costs the same? The houses are cheaper there, but rent is not that much cheaper. Motel rooms cost the same there as here. Gas costs just a little less than it does here. Walk into a convenience store and pretty much EVERYTHING costs the same there in the MS Delta as it does in Puget Sound.

If high wages automatically equaled higher prices, then that would NOT be the case - almost everything would be cheaper! But it's not. Why is that?
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Are you sure you have actually been away from Washington State. Not only is housing much cheaper in places with lower wages but so is a ton of other stuff. Why do you think BAS that the military pays is almost half in Ft Bragg NC as it is here at Ft Lewis. It is because everything is significantly cheaper not just houses. Rent included.

Also not sure what 3rd world counties you have been to but the ones I have been to food is drastically cheaper than here in the US. You can go to the Philippines and get a good sit down meal at a nice restaurant for 3 to 5 dollars US. Same as in Thailand or Bangladesh. Show me where in the US you can do that. Maybe you should try and get away from the tourist areas.

Using untrue claims does not help your cause.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
So we can regulate automation just as easily as wages. You haven't suggested an unsolvable problem. Businesses have flourished with far lower corporate profits in the past when taxes were higher and the minimum wage worth more when adjusted for inflation.

I've suggested exactly where the money will come from, higher paid workers will spend more money on slightly higher prices and businesses will have to eat some of the increase to keep business they would otherwise lose.

You still haven't explained why states with higher minimum wages have lower rates of unemployment and more business presence then states that only have the federal minimum
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How exactly are you going to regulate automation. Tell a company how many kiosks it can have. Sounds like a great idea.

Why do you think that company's will just eat the some of the added cost of the increase. When has that ever happened. Most likely they will simply take there prices to cover it and guess what. We are back to square one.
 
The concept of a minimum wage is downright silly in a capitalistic economy. If you dont like your salary then go find another job, its as simple as that.
 
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