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Thread: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

  1. #71
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    "Living wage" and "minimum wage" are two entirely different things. If the "minimum wage" went to $10+/ hour it STILL wouldn't be enough to live on. It would probably be close if you were single and had no dependents but it would be barely scraping by at best.

    This issue follows the same philosophy that people use when they call for tax increases on the wealthy. It can be shown over and over again that tax increases will only cover a small fraction of the deficit and it is only through spending cuts and economic growth that we can ever hope to erase it. Even with this knowledge in hand the same "tax the rich" battle cry just keeps on because it is a play on emotion that is easy to sell.

    I'm to the point where I say just go ahead and do it. I'll support it. Increase the minimum wage to whatever you want and increase the top tax brackets, too. All I ask is that once these measures are in place and we're still up to our eyeballs in debt and the middle class are still wallowing in mediocrity... have the decency to vote for people who offer REAL solutions to the REAL problem instead of offering feel good token gestures that only serve to play to the masses and maintain the status quo.
    Well, I'm glad you see that "trickle-down" doesn't work. That's why George H.W. Bush referred to it as "voodoo economics". I'm no fan of Al Sharpton by any means, but I have to admit I like his quip: "We got the down, but we never got the trickle."

    Keynesian economics works - that's what got us from the 1950's through the 1970's without an exploding federal debt - our worst economics times since the Depression all came AFTER Reaganomics took effect. And if you'll think about it, what got us out of the Depression? Our huge military build-up for WWII, right? All the shipbuilding, all the factories, all that was paid for by the taxpayers...and their taxes stimulated the economy to the point that after WWII, we were the strongest economy the world had ever seen. If the conservatives were right that economic stimulus doesn't work, then our taxpayer-funded buildup to WWII SHOULD have driven us further down into the Depression instead of bringing us out of it.

    Taxes can be too high...but they can be too low. The three times since WWI that our taxes were the lowest were in the 1920's, 1981, and in the early 2000's. And what happened following each of those times? Correlation isn't causation...but the pattern is interesting.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  2. #72
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    You absolutely can easily automate parts of fast food places like McDonalds or Burger King. The order taking part is already automated at some places around where I live, and it works great. I'm sure that automation of the food cooking part is very near.
    We'll see, won't we?
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  3. #73
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by CalGun View Post
    IDK but I'd be curious to see how your fixed income seniors respond? Will they get some kind of city addition to their social security so they can afford to buy things in town? When you find them deciding on cat food instead of meds and dying without a penny to their name let me know.
    Gotta be careful with those assumptions, guy - they come back and bite you sometimes, y'know? If you'll recall, seniors have this little thing called "Medicare" - you may have heard of it, you know, at those Tea Party rallies where they carried signs saying, "Keep your government hands off my Medicare!"

    And last I recall, conservatives wanted to privatize Social Security! Seeing how well the deregulated private sector did in 2008, that should work out just fine for everyone, huh? Of course, that's unless y'all want to get rid of SS in toto, since that was part of FDR's socialist agenda, y'know....
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Now you are simply ignoring the facts - the US, with its lower MW, spends LESS than Australia, with its higher MW, on "safety net" programs. There is no tax revenue increase on an earned income of $20K vs. safety net payments of $20K (except for SS/Medicare).
    And they can do this because they work their system more efficiently than we do. From your reference:

    By contrast, Australia’s flat-rate payments are financed from general taxation revenue, and there are no separate social security contributions; benefits are also income-tested or asset-tested, so payments reduce as other resources increase. The rationale for this approach is that it reduces poverty more efficiently by concentrating the available resources on the poor (“helping those most in need”) and minimises adverse incentives by limiting the overall level of spending and taxes.

    ...

    Our system relies more heavily on income-testing and directs a higher share of benefits to lower-income groups than any other country in the OECD (and probably in the world). The poorest 20 per cent of the population receives nearly 42 per cent of all the money spent on social security; the richest 20 per cent receives only around 3 per cent. As a result, the poorest fifth receives twelve times as much in social benefits as the richest fifth, while in the United States the poorest get about one and a half times as much as the richest.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  5. #75
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And they can do this because they work their system more efficiently than we do. From your reference:

    By contrast, Australia’s flat-rate payments are financed from general taxation revenue, and there are no separate social security contributions; benefits are also income-tested or asset-tested, so payments reduce as other resources increase. The rationale for this approach is that it reduces poverty more efficiently by concentrating the available resources on the poor (“helping those most in need”) and minimises adverse incentives by limiting the overall level of spending and taxes.

    ...

    Our system relies more heavily on income-testing and directs a higher share of benefits to lower-income groups than any other country in the OECD (and probably in the world). The poorest 20 per cent of the population receives nearly 42 per cent of all the money spent on social security; the richest 20 per cent receives only around 3 per cent. As a result, the poorest fifth receives twelve times as much in social benefits as the richest fifth, while in the United States the poorest get about one and a half times as much as the richest.
    You are only hurting your case here. You are saying that the more efficient "safety net" system is also the more expensive "safety net" system.

    You can't have it both ways because the higher that you drive the cost of living by mandating higher wages then the more you must give to the folks on "safety net" programs to make ends meet. This is why Australia, with a lower percentage of poor people, still has to spend more of its GDP on them.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 05-02-14 at 07:29 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    Why read something that compares apples to oranges. Actually the number of employee's do matter along with price point and other factors that you ignore because it counters your argument.
    Not when you're dealing with over 100K employees. The cost presented in the study was PER EMPLOYEE...and the jobs the employees of both companies are doing are not that different.

    Moving the goal posts that is not what you said. you said making 15 was a low wage and you can barely get by. you neither mentioned anything about family or anything else. don't change the argument because it gets countered. 12 dollars is a livable wages. 15 is a livable wage. heck when i moved i was making 10 an hour and was still able to get by.
    I'm sorry - I didn't realize that it was your experience that $10/hr is JUST FINE in NY and SF just like it is in backwoods wherever. And I didn't realize that in your world, everybody's single and just taking care of themselves, that there's no single parents out there trying to take care of a child on their own, that there's nobody who hasn't faced the oh-so-hard times you've faced.

    UMM 15 avg starting wage for a entry level computer tech. computer programmers or admins will make more but for your average computer tech 12-15 is average.
    But an entry level computer tech is not going to be the one doing the automation for a business, is he? He'll be doing low-level stuff like PC installation, running cables, and minor repair. Been there, done that.

    you want to know how many stores use automated food ordering machines now? quite a few. they are easy simple and work well. so yes they can easily automate mcdonalds or burger king.
    Again, we'll see.

    they are already automating walmart. they are already have self check out. 1 person can cover 4 or 5 stations compared to having 4 cashiers.
    Yes, I know about the automating check-out...and while they're okay if you have just a few items, if you've got a lot of items, they're a pain in the kiester. They effectively provide an assist which alleviates the need for one, maybe two employees max per shift, but they will not, repeat, will not, replace all the human employees. Ain't gonna happen.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You are only hurting your case here. You are saying that the more efficient "safety net" system is also the more expensive "safety net" system.

    You can't have it both ways because the higher that you drive the cost of living by mandating higher wages then the more you must give to the folks on "safety net" programs to make ends meet. This is why Australia, with a lower percentage of poor people, still has to spend more of its GDP on them.
    Huh? Where did I say that their system is more expensive? I never said that! In fact - and again, from your reference:

    The most recent data on social spending in OECD countries shows that in 2007, the year before the global financial crisis, Australia spent 16 per cent of GDP on cash benefits (including pensions and unemployment payments, healthcare and community services) compared to an OECD average of just over 19 per cent. We actually spent a little less than the United States and Japan, and the only countries that spent substantially less than we did were lower-income countries like Mexico, Chile, Turkey and Korea.
    In most rich countries, the welfare state is the largest single component of public spending and therefore the main determinant of how much tax income needs to be collected. About half of all the taxes collected in Australia are directed to social spending, but because we spend less than average we also have lower taxes than average. With taxes at about 27 per cent of GDP in 2008 compared to an OECD average of close to 35 per cent, Australia is the sixth lowest-taxing country in the OECD.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    This is not very well known, and the leftist are good at leaving it out of the equation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    actually it is more than that. most union labor has their salaries and pay tied to minimum wage. so when minimum wage goes up they have a me to clause.
    almost all union labor will get a huge pay increase as well.

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    All that typing and you didnt' even address how raising the minimum wage and inflation will hurt seniors. You progressive folks have been trying to scare seniors about us conservatives for decades and now you want to put nails in their coffins and not even address the issue? I guess that's how the left roles these days - tell everyone they can keep their dr, a video kills ambassadors, and now give the kids a raise and be happy you got medicare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Gotta be careful with those assumptions, guy - they come back and bite you sometimes, y'know? If you'll recall, seniors have this little thing called "Medicare" - you may have heard of it, you know, at those Tea Party rallies where they carried signs saying, "Keep your government hands off my Medicare!"

    And last I recall, conservatives wanted to privatize Social Security! Seeing how well the deregulated private sector did in 2008, that should work out just fine for everyone, huh? Of course, that's unless y'all want to get rid of SS in toto, since that was part of FDR's socialist agenda, y'know....

  10. #80
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    What will granny say when her fixed SS check does not cover the bills anymore? What will the retired military vet do when their fixed income fails to get that generous raise? Do these morons in Seattle not see that not all city residents work or even intend to?
    *sigh*

    You're assuming that prices will skyrocket higher than the national average. Gotta be careful with that.

    What happens with many retirees in Seattle is that they go to retirement communties in the city - and there are a LOT of them - they're nice, and most people over 60 can qualify.

    The next step from there are assisted living facilities. The state pays the facility (which is not a nursing home by any means) a set amount, and the retired people have a safe place to live, food to eat, access to recreation, transport pretty much anywhere in the city they want to go, (or drive if they have a car) and yes, they still have spending money - their rent and food and medical is taken care of.

    I do know a little bit about this - I'm retired military, and having run an adult family home for the elderly, we did learn about the competition - we were the next step, the one between assisted living facilities and the nursing homes.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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