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Thread: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

  1. #61
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I am not sure that I understand what poverty rates are based on, much less how, with no standard to compare nations, it matters. The bottom line is that those considered poor before getting "safety net" assistance are no longer poor after getting it in either the US or Australia (or any "rich" nations). If Australia spends more of its GDP on its poor, than the US does, then the percentage in poverty matters little if they still require more aid to lift them out of it.
    Is it "more aid required to lift them out of it", or is it "they're willing to do what it takes to lift more people out of poverty"?

    Anyway, my overarching point - as it has been for years now - is that if strong social safety nets were really so bad economically, then why are the nations with the strongest social safety nets the ones that are generally the most stable, with the highest standards of living, and the healthiest economically?

    I say that the social safety net, instead of being a drag on the economy, is an essential part of growing the economy. Instead of having a vast income inequality with the poorest of the poor being lucky to get $2/day as in so many third-world nations, our 'poor' are still generally well off when compared to what's found in third-world nations. What's more, they spend pretty much every penny they get, which boosts the local economy, which boosts the nation's economy as a whole. In other words, yes, conservatives are right that taxes are wealth redistribution, but it's that wealth redistribution that makes the economy healthier as a whole...and the proof lay in all the first-world socialized democracies on the planet.

    And if we have a significantly higher minimum wage, that takes some of the pressure off the taxpayer - and the tax revenue can go to pay for other improvements or, maybe, just maybe, the debt.
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And you are NOT going to be able to somehow automate McDonald's or Burger King, much less Wal-Mart. If you think you can, you seriously need a urinalysis test. Sure, they'll have tech assist, but not true automation. People won't go to what would essentially be a drive-through vending machine.
    You absolutely can easily automate parts of fast food places like McDonalds or Burger King. The order taking part is already automated at some places around where I live, and it works great. I'm sure that automation of the food cooking part is very near.

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    While you are applying money to the minimum wage that people aren't qualified to earn don't forget to double or triple social security so the poor elderly can afford the mcnuggets!

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    IDK but I'd be curious to see how your fixed income seniors respond? Will they get some kind of city addition to their social security so they can afford to buy things in town? When you find them deciding on cat food instead of meds and dying without a penny to their name let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And when - when! - Seattle's economy continues to grow after the $15/hour MW is in effect, what will the conservatives say then?

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by CalGun View Post
    IDK but I'd be curious to see how your fixed income seniors respond? Will they get some kind of city addition to their social security so they can afford to buy things in town? When you find them deciding on cat food instead of meds and dying without a penny to their name let me know.
    I agree, but if I died without a penny to my name I'd be happy. What a waste otherwise, IMO. :p

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Is it "more aid required to lift them out of it", or is it "they're willing to do what it takes to lift more people out of poverty"?

    Anyway, my overarching point - as it has been for years now - is that if strong social safety nets were really so bad economically, then why are the nations with the strongest social safety nets the ones that are generally the most stable, with the highest standards of living, and the healthiest economically?

    I say that the social safety net, instead of being a drag on the economy, is an essential part of growing the economy. Instead of having a vast income inequality with the poorest of the poor being lucky to get $2/day as in so many third-world nations, our 'poor' are still generally well off when compared to what's found in third-world nations. What's more, they spend pretty much every penny they get, which boosts the local economy, which boosts the nation's economy as a whole. In other words, yes, conservatives are right that taxes are wealth redistribution, but it's that wealth redistribution that makes the economy healthier as a whole...and the proof lay in all the first-world socialized democracies on the planet.

    And if we have a significantly higher minimum wage, that takes some of the pressure off the taxpayer - and the tax revenue can go to pay for other improvements or, maybe, just maybe, the debt.
    Now you are simply ignoring the facts - the US, with its lower MW, spends LESS than Australia, with its higher MW, on "safety net" programs. There is no tax revenue increase on an earned income of $20K vs. safety net payments of $20K (except for SS/Medicare).
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    You really didn't READ the article, did you? The measurement is cost per employee, and the number of employees does not matter - the jobs they are doing is comparable. Remember, the big difference between the two sets of employees is that Sam's Club is having to spend much, much more in retraining costs because they have such a high turnover. Also:
    Why read something that compares apples to oranges. Actually the number of employee's do matter along with price point and other factors that you ignore because it counters your argument.
    Sam's West, Inc. (doing business as Sam's Club) is an American chain of membership-only retail warehouse clubs owned and operated by Wal-Mart Stores, Inc., founded in 1983 and named after Walmart founder Sam Walton. As of 2012 Sam's Club chain serves 47 million U.S. and Puerto Rican members and is the 8th largest U.S. retailer.[2] As of January 31, 2008, Sam's Club ranks second in sales volume among warehouse clubs with 57 billion in sales behind Costco, despite the fact that Sam's has more retail locations.
    Thank you for supporting my argument.

    Were you raising a family on that $12/hr? What you are able to do for yourself is one thing - what you have to be able to do for a family is a whole different ball of wax. And where you live makes a big difference, too. For instance, one can live in the MS Delta where I grew up on $10/hr if one is careful...but $10/hr isn't even close to what's needed to live in NY or SF.
    Moving the goal posts that is not what you said. you said making 15 was a low wage and you can barely get by. you neither mentioned anything about family or anything else. don't change the argument because it gets countered.

    12 dollars is a livable wages. 15 is a livable wage. heck when i moved i was making 10 an hour and was still able to get by.

    If a computer tech is only getting $15/hr, he needs to find a new employer. I worked as one for $17/hr...but that was ten years ago. And you are NOT going to be able to somehow automate McDonald's or Burger King, much less Wal-Mart. If you think you can, you seriously need a urinalysis test. Sure, they'll have tech assist, but not true automation. People won't go to what would essentially be a drive-through vending machine.
    UMM 15 avg starting wage for a entry level computer tech. computer programmers or admins will make more but for your average computer tech 12-15 is average.

    you want to know how many stores use automated food ordering machines now? quite a few. they are easy simple and work well.
    so yes they can easily automate mcdonalds or burger king.

    they are already automating walmart. they are already have self check out. 1 person can cover 4 or 5 stations compared to having 4 cashiers.

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    We will still continue to state that until you can show a direct connection between the growing economy and raising the MW, it's still a bad idea. "Correlation does not equal causation." Show us the mechanism for how increasing a cost with no benefit extended to the profitability of a company can be good for the economy.
    Easy! Here. That's a link to a Harvard study showing that because Costco pays its employees a living wage, they have a lot lower turnover and spend so much less on hiring and retraining that they actually spend less per employee than Sam's Club, even though Sam's Club pays their employees an average of $5 LESS per hour than Costco does.
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by CalGun View Post
    While you are applying money to the minimum wage that people aren't qualified to earn don't forget to double or triple social security so the poor elderly can afford the mcnuggets!
    actually it is more than that. most union labor has their salaries and pay tied to minimum wage. so when minimum wage goes up they have a me to clause.
    almost all union labor will get a huge pay increase as well.

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And when - when! - Seattle's economy continues to grow after the $15/hour MW is in effect, what will the conservatives say then?
    What will granny say when her fixed SS check does not cover the bills anymore? What will the retired military vet do when their fixed income fails to get that generous raise? Do these morons in Seattle not see that not all city residents work or even intend to?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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