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Thread: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And when - when! - Seattle's economy continues to grow after the $15/hour MW is in effect, what will the conservatives say then?
    We will still continue to state that until you can show a direct connection between the growing economy and raising the MW, it's still a bad idea. "Correlation does not equal causation." Show us the mechanism for how increasing a cost with no benefit extended to the profitability of a company can be good for the economy.
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    I applaud your use of a concrete example to make your point. So let us compare the cost of living differences of the US and Australia to see if your theory holds up, after all, cost of living is the measure most important to the working poor.

    Cost Of Living Comparison Between Australia And United States

    EDIT: To be fair, I must also address your contention that Australia's higher minimum wage would, in fact, reduce their need for "wefare" spending to levels below that of the US. It seems, that too, is not so.

    How fair is Australia
    good point - I like that site!

    Now, for the flip side of the argument, the poverty rate in Australia is lower than it is here. Not by much, but then, their people mostly don't have to worry about affording health care.

    But there's something else to think about, too - just because a place has a high cost of living doesn't mean it's a bad place to live. Here's the ranking of nations by cost of living...and almost all of the ones with the highest cost of living are first-world nations with the highest standards of living (Venezuela's gotta be a statistical outlier), whereas the ones with the lowest cost of living are without exception third-world nations.

    In other words, "nanny-statism" obviously generally enables nations to be more stable and to have a higher standard of living for their population. There is one and only one downside that I see to the high-tax, high-regulation, strong-social-safety-net governmental systems of first-world democracies: consumption. It's been said that in order for everyone to live a first-world lifestyle, we'd need three Earths. So what can be done, what the end result may be, I simply don't know. But I do know that life is healthier, safer, and in many ways better in first-world socialized democracies than in any other country you care to name.
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    good point - I like that site!

    Now, for the flip side of the argument, the poverty rate in Australia is lower than it is here. Not by much, but then, their people mostly don't have to worry about affording health care.

    But there's something else to think about, too - just because a place has a high cost of living doesn't mean it's a bad place to live. Here's the ranking of nations by cost of living...and almost all of the ones with the highest cost of living are first-world nations with the highest standards of living (Venezuela's gotta be a statistical outlier), whereas the ones with the lowest cost of living are without exception third-world nations.

    In other words, "nanny-statism" obviously generally enables nations to be more stable and to have a higher standard of living for their population. There is one and only one downside that I see to the high-tax, high-regulation, strong-social-safety-net governmental systems of first-world democracies: consumption. It's been said that in order for everyone to live a first-world lifestyle, we'd need three Earths. So what can be done, what the end result may be, I simply don't know. But I do know that life is healthier, safer, and in many ways better in first-world socialized democracies than in any other country you care to name.
    I am not sure that I understand what poverty rates are based on, much less how, with no standard to compare nations, it matters. The bottom line is that those considered poor before getting "safety net" assistance are no longer poor after getting it in either the US or Australia (or any "rich" nations). If Australia spends more of its GDP on its poor, than the US does, then the percentage in poverty matters little if they still require more aid to lift them out of it.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Oh no! You claim 15 is going to be good for the economy, then 50 will be even better.
    Less regulation is good for the economy, then no regulation will be even better. DEATH TO AMERICA. ANARCHY!

    Lower taxes are good for the economy, so maybe we should have 0% taxes for all! Run an all-volunteer government. I'm sure the highways will be fine and our troops will have... You know, bullets and things.
    Last edited by Deuce; 05-02-14 at 05:36 PM.
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    the REST of the first world is feeding upon the US, and have been doing so since at LEAST ww2, most of them since ww1. They get away with not having to spend much of anything for military defense, for instance, because WE pick up the tab for that.

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by ginwood View Post
    the REST of the first world is feeding upon the US, and have been doing so since at LEAST ww2, most of them since ww1. They get away with not having to spend much of anything for military defense, for instance, because WE pick up the tab for that.
    So how much military spending should we cut?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    What you're not getting is that YOU PAY ANYWAY. If you don't pay enough for the workers to feed, shelter, and clothe themselves and their families, then you will pay the additional taxes necessary for them to do so. Here's a Harvard study that might be of interest to you. It found that Costco's employee costs are actually cheaper than Sam's Club even though Costco pays its employees on average $5/hr MORE than Sam's Club does.

    Try reading that reference...and think about what would happen if businesses paid enough that they didn't have such a high turnover rate....
    costco also doesn't have half the stores or half the employee or half the overhead as sam's club either. costco also has a higher price point and caters to a different crowd of people. even though they are both warehouse stores they do not contain the same products. i get so tired of this false impression that gets spouted.

    lets up costco store numbers by a few hundred hire about 500 more employee's and see if their management doesn't make changes to pay scale.


    That's the big bugaboo among conservatives - and it's flat wrong. Why? $15/hr is still not a lot of money - it's enough to get by on (if one is careful) without depending on taxpayer assistance. The people will STILL be looking for the cheapest bargains they can get...which will keep the market prices from skyrocketing like conservatives think they will.
    if you can't live on 15 dollars an hour then you need some much needed financial counsiling. i lived perfectly fine on 12 dollars an hour. no tax payer assistance required.

    you also failed to address the point. the computer tech that makes 15 an hour isn't going to work for the same wage as a bag boy or a burger flipper or a cashier. he is going to want more money since his job is significantly higher. everybody above that person is going to want the same thing. more money for doing a much harder job.

    that means price increases and or people let go to compensate the distortion in the salary market.

    You're going to automate McDonald's, Burger King, and Wal-Mart? Good luck with that!
    They make automated food ordering systems now and walmart already has automated checkout systems. so yes they are having good luck with that.
    i don't need bag boys the cashers can bag the groceries if needed.

    for mcdonalds i just need 1 person in the drive through and 1 person to get food to people and a few people to cook. if you go into mcdonalds now you see 3 people taking orders at least another 2 or 3 people getting food then the cooks. i can easily downgrade 3 or 4 people.

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    Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    If minimum wage goes up by say, $5/hour, isn't it only fair that every worker's wage is raised by the same amount?
    Last edited by The Man; 05-02-14 at 06:22 PM.

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    I like raising minimum wage to living wage as long as you eliminate corporate tax, eliminate businesses having health care costs by going to single payer for catastrophic and cash/charity for the minor stuff, and eliminate state income tax. If job creators are overloaded they will close up, raise prices so living wage is meaningless as living standards are just adjusted, or move the jobs to a more business friendly country.

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    costco also doesn't have half the stores or half the employee or half the overhead as sam's club either. costco also has a higher price point and caters to a different crowd of people. even though they are both warehouse stores they do not contain the same products. i get so tired of this false impression that gets spouted.
    You really didn't READ the article, did you? The measurement is cost per employee, and the number of employees does not matter - the jobs they are doing is comparable. Remember, the big difference between the two sets of employees is that Sam's Club is having to spend much, much more in retraining costs because they have such a high turnover. Also:

    Sam's West, Inc. (doing business as Sam's Club) is an American chain of membership-only retail warehouse clubs owned and operated by Wal-Mart Stores, Inc., founded in 1983 and named after Walmart founder Sam Walton. As of 2012 Sam's Club chain serves 47 million U.S. and Puerto Rican members and is the 8th largest U.S. retailer.[2] As of January 31, 2008, Sam's Club ranks second in sales volume among warehouse clubs with 57 billion in sales behind Costco, despite the fact that Sam's has more retail locations.

    lets up costco store numbers by a few hundred hire about 500 more employee's and see if their management doesn't make changes to pay scale.
    Really? As of July 2012, Costco is the second largest retailer in the United States, the seventh largest retailer in the world and the largest membership warehouse club chain in the United States

    Furthermore, Costco already has 174,000 employees, so I really don't think 500 more employees isn't going to make that much of a difference.

    if you can't live on 15 dollars an hour then you need some much needed financial counsiling. i lived perfectly fine on 12 dollars an hour. no tax payer assistance required.
    Were you raising a family on that $12/hr? What you are able to do for yourself is one thing - what you have to be able to do for a family is a whole different ball of wax. And where you live makes a big difference, too. For instance, one can live in the MS Delta where I grew up on $10/hr if one is careful...but $10/hr isn't even close to what's needed to live in NY or SF.

    you also failed to address the point. the computer tech that makes 15 an hour isn't going to work for the same wage as a bag boy or a burger flipper or a cashier. he is going to want more money since his job is significantly higher. everybody above that person is going to want the same thing. more money for doing a much harder job.

    that means price increases and or people let go to compensate the distortion in the salary market.
    They make automated food ordering systems now and walmart already has automated checkout systems. so yes they are having good luck with that.
    i don't need bag boys the cashers can bag the groceries if needed.

    for mcdonalds i just need 1 person in the drive through and 1 person to get food to people and a few people to cook. if you go into mcdonalds now you see 3 people taking orders at least another 2 or 3 people getting food then the cooks. i can easily downgrade 3 or 4 people.[/QUOTE]

    If a computer tech is only getting $15/hr, he needs to find a new employer. I worked as one for $17/hr...but that was ten years ago. And you are NOT going to be able to somehow automate McDonald's or Burger King, much less Wal-Mart. If you think you can, you seriously need a urinalysis test. Sure, they'll have tech assist, but not true automation. People won't go to what would essentially be a drive-through vending machine.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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