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Thread: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

  1. #41
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    Why not just make the minimum wage $300,000 per year? Then we'd all be rich!
    Might as well. Right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Good for Seattle. What is the cost of living? Price of stuff and services? Hmm? My bet is you see companies leave Seattle.
    I'm sure some will. But on the other hand, Washington state already has the highest minimum wage in the nation...yet we've got a whole passel of large corporations here that don't seem to want to leave - it seems they really like the fact that Seattle's one of the best-educated cities in America. Microsoft, Starbucks, Group Health, Amazon, RealNetworks, Zillow, Nordstrom, Windermere, Holland America, Alaska Air Group, Costco, T-Mobile, Weyerhaeuser...the list goes on. So what's going to happen when the people on the lowest rung have more money to spend? They're going to SPEND it...which means the local businesses make more, which means the local corporations make more...

    ...nah, I think we'll do just fine, thank you.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  3. #43
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You do know that doubling the minimum wage will cause prices to go up. Right?
    Not so much. Even working full-time at $15/hr doesn't mean one has a whole lot of extra money to spend - it only means that one has enough to spend on essentials without having to depend on government assistance. They're still going to hunt for the best bargains not out of choice, but out of necessity...which means that market forces will not allow prices to go up nearly so much as you seem to suppose.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  4. #44
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
    He asked 'current average hourly wage', not current minimum wage.
    Didn't see the average hourly wage, but the average yearly wage is just over $50K. Sound like a lot - sure drives up prices, right? But while that drives up prices, it makes things that much harder for those who are making minimum wage.

    A better question to ask is, "what's Seattle's living wage". Here's an MIT site...which, since it involves things like "science" and says things that conservatives might not agree with automatically makes it suspect to most conservatives, but it says something to support both sides. According to MIT, the living wage in Seattle for a single adult is 'only' $9.64, but the living wage for two adults with one child is $18.31, and for one adult with one child it's $20.53...which increase I would think is probably due to the cost of child care while the parent is working.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    You also left out higher costs.
    You also left out higher qualifications for positions. if you want 15 an hour you better have the qualifications for 15.
    What you're not getting is that YOU PAY ANYWAY. If you don't pay enough for the workers to feed, shelter, and clothe themselves and their families, then you will pay the additional taxes necessary for them to do so. Here's a Harvard study that might be of interest to you. It found that Costco's employee costs are actually cheaper than Sam's Club even though Costco pays its employees on average $5/hr MORE than Sam's Club does.

    Try reading that reference...and think about what would happen if businesses paid enough that they didn't have such a high turnover rate....

    you left out the boost in pay for all those not making minimum wage that will demand higher wages in return.
    then you left out the increased prices to compensate for that.
    That's the big bugaboo among conservatives - and it's flat wrong. Why? $15/hr is still not a lot of money - it's enough to get by on (if one is careful) without depending on taxpayer assistance. The people will STILL be looking for the cheapest bargains they can get...which will keep the market prices from skyrocketing like conservatives think they will.

    you also left out the fact that instead of paying 15 an hour i can install automation in places and eliminate positions.
    That or i fire all the people that i need to and just outsource it to someone else.
    You're going to automate McDonald's, Burger King, and Wal-Mart? Good luck with that!
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Fabulous View Post
    According to 2012 Bureau of Labor statistics 3.6 million people made the federal minimum wage or below.

    4.7% of the workforce, if you want to look at it that way.

    It's a political stunt. A "tug on the emotional heartstrings" designed to divert attention from the fact that a more robust economy solves our problems much more effectively.
    And your "4.7% of the workforce" claim is itself a political stunt as well. Why? If an employer pays ONE PENNY over MW, then he's paying above MW, isn't he? There's a heck of a lot of jobs out there that pay maybe $.50, maybe $1 over the minimum wage...and that's still not enough to live on without taxpayer support.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    What you're not getting is that YOU PAY ANYWAY. If you don't pay enough for the workers to feed, shelter, and clothe themselves and their families, then you will pay the additional taxes necessary for them to do so. Here's a Harvard study that might be of interest to you. It found that Costco's employee costs are actually cheaper than Sam's Club even though Costco pays its employees on average $5/hr MORE than Sam's Club does.

    Try reading that reference...and think about what would happen if businesses paid enough that they didn't have such a high turnover rate....



    That's the big bugaboo among conservatives - and it's flat wrong. Why? $15/hr is still not a lot of money - it's enough to get by on (if one is careful) without depending on taxpayer assistance. The people will STILL be looking for the cheapest bargains they can get...which will keep the market prices from skyrocketing like conservatives think they will.



    You're going to automate McDonald's, Burger King, and Wal-Mart? Good luck with that!
    Concerning the bolded above, that assumes that "you" are the one paying those taxes. That alone makes "you" a subset of the voters and general public. I am sick of the notion that raising the overall wages of entry level workers means that only entry level workers will get their pay increased. Costs will go up for all, not just those paying taxes to support "safety net" programs and, more importantly, those price increases will fall most heavily on those nearest the bottom of the income scale.
    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Concerning the bolded above, that assumes that "you" are the one paying those taxes. That alone makes "you" a subset of the voters and general public. I am sick of the notion that raising the overall wages of entry level workers means that only entry level workers will get their pay increased. Costs will go up for all, not just those paying taxes to support "safety net" programs and, more importantly, those price increases will fall most heavily on those nearest the bottom of the income scale.
    If that were the case, then Australia - whose economy really isn't that different from our own - would've had a much harder time of it with their $16.81 USD minimum wage.

    Will prices go up somewhat? Probably. But compare that to the lower amount of taxes we'll be spending to support those below the poverty line (not to mention a possibly lower rate of crime among the poor, since fewer will be dirt poor). Like I said - you pay anyway...we all pay anyway. Wouldn't it be better for the private sector to be paying people enough to live, than depending upon the government to give people enough to live?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    If that were the case, then Australia - whose economy really isn't that different from our own - would've had a much harder time of it with their $16.81 USD minimum wage.

    Will prices go up somewhat? Probably. But compare that to the lower amount of taxes we'll be spending to support those below the poverty line (not to mention a possibly lower rate of crime among the poor, since fewer will be dirt poor). Like I said - you pay anyway...we all pay anyway. Wouldn't it be better for the private sector to be paying people enough to live, than depending upon the government to give people enough to live?
    I applaud your use of a concrete example to make your point. So let us compare the cost of living differences of the US and Australia to see if your theory holds up, after all, cost of living is the measure most important to the working poor.

    Cost Of Living Comparison Between Australia And United States

    EDIT: To be fair, I must also address your contention that Australia's higher minimum wage would, in fact, reduce their need for "wefare" spending to levels below that of the US. It seems, that too, is not so.

    http://inside.org.au/how-fair-is-aus...welfare-state/
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 05-02-14 at 04:41 PM.
    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And your "4.7% of the workforce" claim is itself a political stunt as well. Why? If an employer pays ONE PENNY over MW, then he's paying above MW, isn't he? There's a heck of a lot of jobs out there that pay maybe $.50, maybe $1 over the minimum wage...and that's still not enough to live on without taxpayer support.
    "Living wage" and "minimum wage" are two entirely different things. If the "minimum wage" went to $10+/ hour it STILL wouldn't be enough to live on. It would probably be close if you were single and had no dependents but it would be barely scraping by at best.

    This issue follows the same philosophy that people use when they call for tax increases on the wealthy. It can be shown over and over again that tax increases will only cover a small fraction of the deficit and it is only through spending cuts and economic growth that we can ever hope to erase it. Even with this knowledge in hand the same "tax the rich" battle cry just keeps on because it is a play on emotion that is easy to sell.

    I'm to the point where I say just go ahead and do it. I'll support it. Increase the minimum wage to whatever you want and increase the top tax brackets, too. All I ask is that once these measures are in place and we're still up to our eyeballs in debt and the middle class are still wallowing in mediocrity... have the decency to vote for people who offer REAL solutions to the REAL problem instead of offering feel good token gestures that only serve to play to the masses and maintain the status quo.
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