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Thread: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

  1. #191
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Guy, you're really digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

    1. Here's the price list for Jollibee in the Philippines - ALL through the Philippines, from "high-wage" Manila to low-wage wherever. You can get a meal there for two bucks (80 pisos)...but lemme tell you, it ain't much of a meal...and if you know anything about the PI, you know that drink is about the size of what would be called a "courtesy cup"...if we're being generous about it. On a side note, I just went to Jollibee yesterday - there's one at Southcenter.

    2. And YES, the food is NOT much cheaper. Tell me, guy - did you LIVE there? Did you go shopping at the local supermarkets or down to the outdoor market? I did - and except for certain things, food is NOT much cheaper in supermarkets there than it is here. If you want to live on the cheap - which we did when I started running too low on funds to afford the supermarket - then you go to the outdoor market called the 'palengki' (can't remember the spelling). Food is significantly cheaper there...and it's all buyer beware. Sanitation? Hah! Flies crawl all over the meat in the open air, and they don't even try to shoo them away. You do not know how old the meat or the fish is, or whether it was diseased before it was slaughtered. The veggies, though, are a safer bet if you know what to look for (and I mostly do).

    So...yeah, if you don't care about what you and I know of as common-sense sanitation procedures for meat and other foods, then yes, food's significantly cheaper there. But if you want to be reasonably sure that you're not going to get e. coli or whatever, then you're going to be paying nearly as much as you do here.

    3. But that's just food...which means we got away from my original point about how high-tech items like computers and cars are generally more expensive - and sometimes twice as expensive - as here in the states. Low wages didn't bring those prices down, did they?

    I'll be there later this year, and I'll probably retire there late next year. Drop by and I'll show you just how expensive it can get. There's a place called Fort Bonifacio - it's got showrooms for Maserati, Lamborghini, and Rolls Royce. Go about a klick in any direction you want, and you're back among the squatters.
    I did live there. I have ate at jollibee many times.
    How do you figure that something that is around 7 times less expensive not much cheaper. What qualifies as much cheaper to you. While I lived there I had a cleaning lady that bought all my food did all the cooking cleaning and laundry. I paid her 60 dollars a week. That covered all the food and her wages. And I ate very good. I spend more than that here in the US and I have to do all the work.

    Do you really not know why high tech stuff is not cheaper there. It's because it is not made there. Why would a company like Apple or Sony or whatever company charge less for there product in different countries. It costs them more or less the same to make an iPhone no matter where the thing it is sold at. It's common sence really.
    Things that are made there like some clothing and other goods are much cheaper because the companies don't have to pay as much in labor.
    Yes I am well aware that there are some rich areas in the PI but what you don't seem to understand is that none of that cheap PI labor went into building any of those nice cars so why would they be cheaper. This is not really a hard concept.
    President Franklin Roosevelt eulogized a fallen American Soldier by saying, He stands in the unbroken line of patriots who have dared to die [that] freedom might live, and grow, and increase its blessings. Freedom lives, and through it he lives--in a way that humbles the undertakings of most men."

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Several things are important:

    1. The article notes broad business support for the minimum wage hike. This support is not an anomaly. One can't look at all local and regional economies as being the same. Seattle has a knowledge-based, relatively high-income economy. Hence, for many businesses, the gradual hike to $15 per hour will largely be irrelevant, as they already pay more than that figure.

    2. Some quick data:

    Current unemployment rate in Seattle (April 2014): 5.9% vs. 6.3% nationwide

    Table 1. Civilian labor force and unemployment by state and metropolitan area

    Bachelor's Degree or Higher (Age 25 and older): 56.5% vs. 28.5% nationwide
    Median annual household income: $63,470 vs. $53,046 nationwide

    USA QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau and Seattle (city) QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau

    3. Data on economic growth (data on jobs and industries is included in the links):

    Real GDP for the Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue MSA increased as follows:
    2010: 3.1% (National: 2.5%)
    2011: 3.3% (National: 1.8%)
    2012: 4.6% (National: 2.8%)

    Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA Economy at a Glance and http://bea.gov/newsreleases/regional..._metro0913.pdf

    In sum, the structural characteristics of Seattle's economy, which is more knowledge-intensive than the economy nationwide and more concentrated in high-growth/high-income sectors, probably makes the minimum wage figure much less important than it would be in other parts of the USA. One should not assume that all locations could support the kind of minimum wage legislation Seattle is pursuing. That is not the case.

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    no it isn't; simply because the concept of structural forms of unemployment is even sillier regarding your line of reasoning.
    LOL structural unemployment? Youve never heard of retraining? Phu-leaze.

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Guy, you're full of it. Both businesses have the same basic model. And the ONLY reason you think the methodology is wrong is because the study is telling you something you don't want to hear.

    Let me guess - you think all those scientists are wrong about anthropogenic global warming too, right?
    And you think that those scientists are wrong about fracking causing earthquakes and contaminating groundwater too, right?

    Yeah, I suppose it's all just part of that grand conspiracy by higher institutions of learning to turn the world into a socialist paradise....
    Demanding science instead of emotional responses always seems to bring out he worst in some liberals. You'll ignore truth in favor of your emotionally satisfying outrage. Sad...
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Demanding science instead of emotional responses always seems to bring out he worst in some liberals. You'll ignore truth in favor of your emotionally satisfying outrage. Sad...
    The only science you're demanding is science that says what you want to hear, what you've already decided that it must say.

    Which is why only 6% of ALL American scientists are Republicans - the rest are independents and Democrats...and mostly liberal.
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  6. #196
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    I did live there. I have ate at jollibee many times.
    Then you know that a Jollibee yumburger costs the same thing in the bundoks of Mindanao as they do in Manila. Thank you for proving my point on that one!

    How do you figure that something that is around 7 times less expensive not much cheaper. What qualifies as much cheaper to you. While I lived there I had a cleaning lady that bought all my food did all the cooking cleaning and laundry. I paid her 60 dollars a week. That covered all the food and her wages. And I ate very good. I spend more than that here in the US and I have to do all the work.
    You paid a lot less because she was buying the food at the palengki and not at the much-more expensive (and much less unsanitary) supermarket. And you can only eat so much food, guy.

    Do you really not know why high tech stuff is not cheaper there. It's because it is not made there. Why would a company like Apple or Sony or whatever company charge less for there product in different countries. It costs them more or less the same to make an iPhone no matter where the thing it is sold at. It's common sence really.
    Things that are made there like some clothing and other goods are much cheaper because the companies don't have to pay as much in labor.
    The reason the imported goods are so expensive there is NOT because they are imported. Otherwise, they'd cost the same that they cost here. The REASON they cost so much more is that import duties is one of the major - and perhaps THE major - source of tax revenue for the Filipino government. They don't have a reliable system of collecting income tax, and their method of collecting VAT at the register is only really effective in malls and nicer locations, so the government has to find other ways of making money - and the most reliable way they can do that is by charging duties at ports of entry. How do I know this? I was looking at shipping a car there, and the government was going to charge me 100% of its original cost in order to bring it there. They tried to charge me $800 for shipping a living room set there, but my brother in law handled that with a few thousand pisos under the table.

    Again, it's not the cost of the import - it's the cost of the tariffs and duties imposed by the government, since that's one of the only reliable ways they have of collecting tax revenue.

    Like I said, soldier, ya gotta get up a bit earlier in the morning to get over this old retired sailor.

    Yes I am well aware that there are some rich areas in the PI but what you don't seem to understand is that none of that cheap PI labor went into building any of those nice cars so why would they be cheaper. This is not really a hard concept.
    No, what YOU don't seem to understand is that it's not a matter of cheap labor, as I showed you above.
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    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Then you know that a Jollibee yumburger costs the same thing in the bundoks of Mindanao as they do in Manila. Thank you for proving my point on that one!
    [B] And how does that price and Mcdonalds price compare to prices here in the US. Thanks for proving my point[/P]

    You paid a lot less because she was buying the food at the palengki and not at the much-more expensive (and much less unsanitary) supermarket. And you can only eat so much food, guy.
    wrong again. She bought all of the food at the Supermarket. She had to bring back every receipt. Nice try though.


    The reason the imported goods are so expensive there is NOT because they are imported. Otherwise, they'd cost the same that they cost here. The REASON they cost so much more is that import duties is one of the major - and perhaps THE major - source of tax revenue for the Filipino government. They don't have a reliable system of collecting income tax, and their method of collecting VAT at the register is only really effective in malls and nicer locations, so the government has to find other ways of making money - and the most reliable way they can do that is by charging duties at ports of entry. How do I know this? I was looking at shipping a car there, and the government was going to charge me 100% of its original cost in order to bring it there. They tried to charge me $800 for shipping a living room set there, but my brother in law handled that with a few thousand pisos under the table.

    Again, it's not the cost of the import - it's the cost of the tariffs and duties imposed by the government, since that's one of the only reliable ways they have of collecting tax revenue.
    I am well aware of that and it has nothing to do with labor whatsoever. That was my point. When local labor has almost nothing to do with a product how exactly do you think it would effect the price one way or the other. You were trying to use the fact that because imported items are expensive it shows that low labor does not lower the cost of items. Local labor needs to be involved in a product to effect the price. Things that involve local labor like food and services are much lower there.

    Like I said, soldier, ya gotta get up a bit earlier in the morning to get over this old retired sailor.



    No, what YOU don't seem to understand is that it's not a matter of cheap labor, as I showed you above.
    You didn't prove anything. Tell me why do you think things that involve decent amounts of local labor are significantly cheaper in the PI.
    President Franklin Roosevelt eulogized a fallen American Soldier by saying, He stands in the unbroken line of patriots who have dared to die [that] freedom might live, and grow, and increase its blessings. Freedom lives, and through it he lives--in a way that humbles the undertakings of most men."

  8. #198
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    You didn't prove anything. Tell me why do you think things that involve decent amounts of local labor are significantly cheaper in the PI.
    You dodged the point entirely. If the cost of electronics, cars, and other high-tech items costs twice as much as it does here, WHY do they cost that much when the SAME imports cost so much less here? There's only one possible answer: tariffs and duties.
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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Singapore has the most numbers of millionaires in the world and they have no acute poverty. Nobody is homeless there- its the one country where I never saw a homeless man living on the streets. And guess what, they have no minimum wage. Case closed.

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    Re: Seattle mayor unveils plan for $15 minimum wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    You dodged the point entirely. If the cost of electronics, cars, and other high-tech items costs twice as much as it does here, WHY do they cost that much when the SAME imports cost so much less here? There's only one possible answer: tariffs and duties.
    Wow how do you not get this. Of course it is tariffs and duties when did I ever say anything different.

    We are talking about the effects low labor wages have on the costs of goods. Items that are imported have almost no local labor costs in them so the local wage has virtually no effect on the cost of an item.
    You were arguing that the lower labor in 3rd world countries does not cause items to cost less. Obviously an item that doesn't use hardly any of that local labor to be produced will not be effected by the labor rate. Items that need local labor to be produced like food or services are much cheaper there.

    You arguing what things like cars and other imported items cost and why they cost what they do has virtually no bearing on this conversation.

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