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The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

ocean515 said:
My argument has not busted. Not even scratched.

But your obviously slanted opinion is noted. Unfortunately for you, there are no figures to back your claim. California alone has lost over 30% of it's manufacturing jobs over the last 20 years. For example, where there were once 4 automobile assembly plants in the state, there is now only one, and Tesla hardly counts.

If you were to apply logic to your feelings, you would discover it is not possible for "rich people", management and the Koch Brothers to pay themselves enough money to account for the loss of good middle income jobs.

As I suggested, what happens when the topic of regulatory incrementalism is brought up, demagogues like yourself step in and start finger pointing to absurd culprits, without applying any real thought to resolving the issue.
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First, most of what you're arguing against are the points I cited as those made by the writers of the article. I think you missed that everything in my first post - except the beginning and last paragraph - was a summary of the article for the benefit of the OP, who obviously didn't read it. I would place a large wager that you didn't read it either.

Second, what the article addresses is that other countries have a growing middle class while ours is declining. Canada has just caught up to us. While the loss of manufacturing jobs certainly is terrible for our nation, how losses that happened 20 years ago can account for what is happening now escapes me. Our manufacturing industry is growing, Canada's is in decline, yet their middle class is growing and ours is in decline. If your brain can disregard those trends and yet again repeat "it's tax codes and loss of manufacturing jobs," then there is no reasonable discussion to be had with you.
 
Muhammed said:
I don't think so.

It's mainly because of anti-union propaganda, horrendous international trade policies and massive immigration.
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I agree on the trade polcies.
 
The Democrats who have turned NH into Vermont east with their "tax everyone" mantra just voted yesterday to raise our gas tax, and it's on its way to our Dem governor to sign it into law. WTH? Goodbye, Live Free or Die.:censored
 
Mustachio said:
First, most of what you're arguing against are the points I cited as those made by the writers of the article. I think you missed that everything in my first post - except the beginning and last paragraph - was a summary of the article for the benefit of the OP, who obviously didn't read it. I would place a large wager that you didn't read it either.

Second, what the article addresses is that other countries have a growing middle class while ours is declining. Canada has just caught up to us. While the loss of manufacturing jobs certainly is terrible for our nation, how losses that happened 20 years ago can account for what is happening now escapes me. Our manufacturing industry is growing, Canada's is in decline, yet their middle class is growing and ours is in decline. If your brain can disregard those trends and yet again repeat "it's tax codes and loss of manufacturing jobs," then there is no reasonable discussion to be had with you.
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Our manufacturing basis is not growing, that is a fact. A well known fact. The United States is becoming a service economy, focused on selling and repairing other countries products. If this well known fact is unfamiliar to you, or if it is known and you reject it, then I agree, there is no reasonable discussion to be had.
 
ocean515 said:
Our manufacturing basis is not growing, that is a fact. A well known fact. The United States is becoming a service economy, focused on selling and repairing other countries products. If this well known fact is unfamiliar to you, or if it is known and you reject it, then I agree, there is no reasonable discussion to be had.
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Oh, well I'm sure that you've got some charts and numbers that you can point to if you're right. Since the end of 2009, how many manufacturing jobs have we lost? Surely you know.

The manufacturing industry took a huge hit in the mid 90s and was in decline until 2010. Since then, we've had gains every year. But don't believe me, believe a reputable news organization. Again, in the last 5 years, the US has had growth in manufacturing, Canada has not. Here's another article which challenges everything you're saying.

EDIT: I remembered that you didn't actually read the article in the OP, so I shouldn't expect you to read these articles. I'll quote the most essential part:

Manufacturing lost 2.3 million jobs during the 2007-09 recession and has so far recovered 622,000.
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Mustachio said:
Oh, well I'm sure that you've got some charts and numbers that you can point to if you're right. Since the end of 2009, how many manufacturing jobs have we lost? Surely you know.

The manufacturing industry took a huge hit in the mid 90s and was in decline until 2010. Since then, we've had gains every year. But don't believe me, believe a reputable news organization. Again, in the last 5 years, the US has had growth in manufacturing, Canada has not. Here's another article which challenges everything you're saying.

EDIT: I remembered that you didn't actually read the article in the OP, so I shouldn't expect you to read these articles. I'll quote the most essential part:
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Some quick data:

Manufacturing: Still Waiting for a True Recovery | Alliance for American Manufacturing

Jobs Graph.JPG
 
ocean515 said:
I don't share your opinion about manufacturing jobs not coming back. I have owned manufacturing businesses for over 35 years and I can tell you from experience offshoring production is a difficult and costly business. The picture one has of some kind of foreign sweatshop banging out cheap components by people making pennies a day is a false one, by and large.
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So you're saying that the boom in China and India is a figment of our imagination and that for the most part the workers are paid quite well?

The trick is trying to get this production back into the US in an affordable manner, while minimizing the regulatory barriers that have been set up by overstepping state and federal agencies.
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Exactly. Like those environmental pricks who don't want their water and air polluted. Or those jerks who want to protect the welfare of the working public. China does not have 'em, so why should we!!1!!!111!


We are in the beginning stages of the next industrial revolution, a revolution involving energy, and it seems the government along with a multitude of regulatory agencies are doing everything they can to ensure the US does not participate in this revolution.
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Exactly!1!1 'Merica should hire Chinese consultants and learn a thing or two.

Rest assured, manufacturing will eventually make it's way back to the US when the cost of oil will exceed the savings of the Asian sweatshops.
 
Middleground said:
So you're saying that the boom in China and India is a figment of our imagination and that for the most part the workers are paid quite well?



Exactly. Like those environmental pricks who don't want their water and air polluted. Or those jerks who want to protect the welfare of the working public. China does not have 'em, so why should we!!1!!!111!




Exactly!1!1 'Merica should hire Chinese consultants and learn a thing or two.

Rest assured, manufacturing will eventually make it's way back to the US when the cost of oil will exceed the savings of the Asian sweatshops.
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You demagogue quite well. Thanks for another example of why such people should be ignored.
 
Henrin said:
If it was up to me I would just remove the subsidies and all taxation towards gas. Of course, that might be too much of a shock to the system since I'm pretty sure gasoline is not actually marketable at it's unsubsidized rate.
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Subsidies are a large part of the US problem. Washington needs to get the oil companies off the public tit
 
ocean515 said:
You demagogue quite well. Thanks for another example of why such people should be ignored.
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I think my points were salient. Stop deflecting and tell me how North American can compete with Chinese and Indian sweatshops.
 
ocean515 said:
Some quick data:

Manufacturing: Still Waiting for a True Recovery | Alliance for American Manufacturing

View attachment 67165352
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Oh, look, your chart goes only until 2009. I repeatedly said that manufacturing lost jobs from the mid/late 90s until the end of 2009, and is rebounding now. If you actually read your link (what's the deal with you and not reading things?) it says the same thing. The current trend is growth. Again, I ask you, if our manufacturing industry is growing, and canada's in in decline, how can you attribute our declining middle class to manufacturing?

If you were right, our middle class would be growing stronger and canada's would be getting weaker throughout the last 5 years. Your argument has been completely busted.
 
Middleground said:
I think my points were salient. Stop deflecting and tell me how North American can compete with Chinese and Indian sweatshops.
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No point to do so. Although you may be an exception, it's been my experience demagogues are rarely swayed by facts. Based on the content and tone of your piece, I'm going to err on the side of economy, and not waste my "breath"

:peace
 
Mustachio said:
Oh, look, your chart goes only until 2009. I repeatedly said that manufacturing lost jobs from the mid/late 90s until the end of 2009, and is rebounding now.
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Rebounding...

So, at the rate you're applauding, as the data suggests, perhaps by 2060 we will once again have job numbers in manufacturing equal to those seen in January 2000.

I'm afraid that's probably not going to do the trick.
 
ocean515 said:
No point to do so. Although you may be an exception, it's been my experience demagogues are rarely swayed by facts. Based on the content and tone of your piece, I'm going to err on the side of economy, and not waste my "breath"

:peace
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You've presented no facts. What does that make you?
 
ocean515 said:
Rebounding...

So, at the rate you're applauding, as the data suggests, perhaps by 2060 we will once again have job numbers in manufacturing equal to those seen in January 2000.

I'm afraid that's probably not going to do the trick.
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The trick? What trick? You're acting like I've been arguing that our manufacturing industry is thriving and strong as it has ever been. That's not my argument, my argument is simple. If manufacturing job creation isn't helping our middle class grow, then you are wrong. There's nothing more to it. If manufacturing job decline isn't hurting Canada's middle class, it's more evidence you're wrong. You can change the subject all you want, but you made a claim, I then provided evidence proving you were wrong. And you don't read anything, not even links that you provide. Why do I waste my time?

The article in the OP cited three reasons that our middle class is currently in decline, and you've said nothing to convince me that any of their conclusions were incorrect. The United States continues to see economic growth, but with weakening labor unions and absurdly lopsided wealth distribution, the middle class aren't seeing the fruits of this growth. And a few million jobs created in the manufacturing industry would certainly help the people who obtain those jobs, but it doesn't change the root of the problem.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Thank you for that intelligent response.
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You're welcome.

Perhaps you could explain why you advocate economic warfare against the working class via increasing the price of fuel.
 
Mustachio said:
The trick? What trick? You're acting like I've been arguing that our manufacturing industry is thriving and strong as it has ever been. That's not my argument, my argument is simple. If manufacturing job creation isn't helping our middle class grow, then you are wrong. There's nothing more to it. If manufacturing job decline isn't hurting Canada's middle class, it's more evidence you're wrong. You can change the subject all you want, but you made a claim, I then provided evidence proving you were wrong. And you don't read anything, not even links that you provide. Why do I waste my time?

The article in the OP cited three reasons that our middle class is currently in decline, and you've said nothing to convince me that any of their conclusions were incorrect. The United States continues to see economic growth, but with weakening labor unions and absurdly lopsided wealth distribution, the middle class aren't seeing the fruits of this growth. And a few million jobs created in the manufacturing industry would certainly help the people who obtain those jobs, but it doesn't change the root of the problem.
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There is no equivalence to Canada, so I don't know where this correlation is coming from. As the data indicates, and as I claimed, the US has lost millions and millions of manufacturing jobs. We are not even close to recovering a fraction of those jobs.

These jobs were at the heart of the middle class. However, both Union and government regulatory pressure drove those jobs out of the country. They continue to keep that lid in place. Fortunately, the union part of the equation has pretty much self imploded on itself, as it deserved. The government side of the problem continues unabated, with little hope of curtailment in the short term. That needs to be addressed.

Again, with the US shift to a service economy, the middle class will be hard pressed to gain any traction, since it will be limited to earning incomes based on fractions of what people are willing to pay per hour for servicing other countries products.
 
Mustachio said:
The third reason is the the United States, despite favorite Republican talking points, does not redistribute wealth like Western European countries do, which hurts middle and lower class families.

It's ironic that your conclusion appears to be in stark contrast to what the article - and the facts - say. You want a stronger middle class? Then vote for the liberals, dude. The rich in America are better off than anywhere else in the world. On the other hand, the middle class need access to education and health care at a cost they can afford, which is something that other countries are accomplishing. But we aren't.
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Correction. We do redistribute wealth. We distribute it from the middle class to the top .01%. The people who hold all the assets benefit from the current political landscape. Loopholes galore for the uber wealthy. Its easy to not pay taxes when you are ultra wealthy. Why do you think the tax code is so large and confusing? Voting for liberals or rinos are the death of the middle class. Its only more status quo with each side.
 
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ocean515 said:
There is no equivalence to Canada, so I don't know where this correlation is coming from. As the data indicates, and as I claimed, the US has lost millions and millions of manufacturing jobs. We are not even close to recovering a fraction of those jobs.

These jobs were at the heart of the middle class. However, both Union and government regulatory pressure drove those jobs out of the country. They continue to keep that lid in place. Fortunately, the union part of the equation has pretty much self imploded on itself, as it deserved. The government side of the problem continues unabated, with little hope of curtailment in the short term. That needs to be addressed.

Again, with the US shift to a service economy, the middle class will be hard pressed to gain any traction, since it will be limited to earning incomes based on fractions of what people are willing to pay per hour for servicing other countries products.
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Wow. You should really read the article. Let me point something important out to you: you don't know what we're talking about. The correlation to Canada would make sense if YOU READ THE ARTICLE! Instead of responding to me, just read the article. Go to the original post and click on the link.
 
Mustachio said:
What you're ignoring is the fact that economic growth in the United States is stable, and is equal to or better than the other countries mentioned in this article. The US leads the world in income from manufacturing jobs. Well, that was true until 2011, when China topped us, but China has a slight advantage in terms of its gigantic population. Manufacturing has improved in recent years, as well. There were plenty of jobs lost due to outsourcing, but the money never stopped flowing. You are right, though, that the money from the manufacturing industry started increasingly flowing to rich people, executives, and the Koch Brothers.

Still, other countries - Canada is a good one to mention - has a growing middle class whose median income has exceeded the median income in the United States. Yet Canada's manufacturing industry isn't growing any faster than ours. Their manufacturing jobs have actually been decreasing.

So our manufacturing industry is getting larger, and Canada's is getting smaller. And yet their median income now exceeds ours. I believe your argument has been busted, sir.
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Explain to me how the manufacturing industry's money flows to the Koch Brothers? You specifically named them for a reason. Show me where you read this dishonest information. Do you know that the Koch company I work for reinvests over 90% of revenues back into the company? What publicly traded company does this?

The slander out there against the Kochs is insane. They make money because they invest in the LONG term. They invest in things that create value for society. Koch Industries is one of the most successful companies in the US, and its not from being dishonest sleazeballs like lots of liberals would love to be true. It is a private company so they don't have to answer to shareholders and worry about short term money interests.

Money flows to rich people because they have money to play with. You are talking out of your anus sir. Do some more research before you spread more dishonesty.
 
Mustachio said:
Wow. You should really read the article. Let me point something important out to you: you don't know what we're talking about. The correlation to Canada would make sense if YOU READ THE ARTICLE! Instead of responding to me, just read the article. Go to the original post and click on the link.
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LOL.

Let me point something important out to you. You don't know what you're "talking" about. I read the article, and the articles. I stand by my statements.

I guess we will just leave it at that.

Thank for your opinions.
 
Muhammed said:
You're welcome.

Perhaps you could explain why you advocate economic warfare against the working class via increasing the price of fuel.
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Sometimes no amount of explanation is going to change anything; in this case as you perceive "warfare" it's a hopeless cause. As is reading any of your posts
 
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