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Thread: The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

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    Re: The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryChinaski View Post
    You want zero social programs and the upper crust to pay zero taxes.
    Direct taxes allow for picking and chosing who pays and who doesn't. But your extremes are from your own mind, not mine.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    There is no question about it. Our lack of infrastructural investment here is a disgrace. We've all seen a nation which used to pride itself on community reinvestment shift to become a short term gain, minimum taxation fiefdom of gated wealthy communities and crumbling inner cites. Meanwhile the countries in Europe and Asia have invested in high speed trains, fiber optic internet and built cities that are not only state of the art but actually art.
    Our tax base is too narrow, and the business climate regulatory agencies have created has limited resources and solutions. Our country is too focused on cushions, and not focused enough on ladders.

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    Re: The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    This is all true. However, what is also true is the massive changes coming to the distribution and use of energy. This would include in both home and business. This would include retrofitting and upgrading. Roadways and other means of transportation are prime for upgrades as well.

    The challenge is how the government allows for these areas of opportunity to be addressed by the business community. If, for example, it goes the way it has with the auto industry, we will continue to shift production out of country in order to keep final price targets in line with what the public is willing to pay.
    Ocean, if we end up paying $8 a gallon for fuel for cars, people will pay it! Oh, we'll all be totally PO'd about it, and we'll scream and holler, but we will pay it, because we love the mobility that cars give us. As more energy efficient cars come to market, like the electric cars did, and if longer distances between recharges become a reality, and if they don't look totally dorky, and are reasonably priced, people will buy them. It seems to me that a lot of jobs could be created just at the recharging stations alone. I think it will happen soon, too, because riding a bike just isn't for everyone. If you have a 40 mile commute from home to your job, and since snow-covered roads are a hazard in the Northern part of the Country, you aren't going to think about riding a bike for six months out of the year.

    Greetings, ocean515.

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    Re: The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Therein lies the rub. For example, in CA, the ex-governor decided to save tax money, he would outsource work on the Golden Gate Bridge. That went to China and while slave labor wages were paid to the workers, we got a cheap bridge in return. That bridge could have been built by Americans. Even if labor was more expensive, that money would have went right back into our economy. Instead it went overseas. We lost big time because of this tax craze mentality.
    There are many reasons products are procured from overseas. The ex-governor had nothing to do with that. He also had nothing to with trying to turn California's fortunes around. When business in penalized, as it has been by Progressives who run California, they leave the state. There is no other reason to explain how a state with so much going for it has seen such a tremendous loss of manufacturing jobs over the last few decades.

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    Re: The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    But you then posted an article talking about how a country that does the opposite is doing better than we are!
    In truth, Canada's tax rate is not that much larger than the US, and when the cost of insurance premiums are removed, Canadians are far better off.

    As well, there is constant cost cutting, the largest of which was in the late 90's where the social welfare system was gutted along with defense et al, to eliminate the deficit and reduce the debt.....which is what propelled us through the 08' crash.

    There ARE low taxes in Canada and efficiencies.

    I would say that one of the largest issues is the waste in the US system, it's governance, and in education and medical care. Once you step out of the on going political war, you see just how in-efficient IS Obamacare; a burden on the middle class. And when you see that, you see that everything Obama has done has been a burden on the middle class, beginning with hios "tax the rich" idea a year ago, where taxes went up the most on the middle class.


    That's the cause imo, as each and every politicial that comes along plays to the optics, either cutting taxes for "trickle down" or raising them to feed the poor, and always the middle class takes in bending over.

    Now for the real news...in Canada the leading political issue is NOT health care, not war, not transportraion, nor education...but improving the middle class....

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    Re: The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/up...t.html?hp&_r=0


    Thanks to govt debt and tax laws as far as I'm concerned.
    That makes no sense.

    How is a middle class considered the most affluent class? I assume they're talking about 'among all middle classes' which in itself is silly. We're all still middle class, are we not?
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    Re: The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    My argument has not busted. Not even scratched.

    But your obviously slanted opinion is noted. Unfortunately for you, there are no figures to back your claim. California alone has lost over 30% of it's manufacturing jobs over the last 20 years. For example, where there were once 4 automobile assembly plants in the state, there is now only one, and Tesla hardly counts.

    If you were to apply logic to your feelings, you would discover it is not possible for "rich people", management and the Koch Brothers to pay themselves enough money to account for the loss of good middle income jobs.

    As I suggested, what happens when the topic of regulatory incrementalism is brought up, demagogues like yourself step in and start finger pointing to absurd culprits, without applying any real thought to resolving the issue.
    Stockholder dividends.

    It is often overlooked that ita not just the money the wealthy own but also that which they CONTROL that is an issue.

    Everybody's retirement money is the money used to make much of the uber rich's money.

    They have all our eggs in their basket. Their own eggs are kept in different baskets, so when the basket falls ots only OTHER people's money that is lost.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

    Power and wealth among nations is cyclical. No doubt America is on its way out and China will rule the roost in the future. We lag behind many countries in education and still have wretched poverty and hunger.
    It's nothing more than X's and O's.

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    Re: The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Our tax base is too narrow, and the business climate regulatory agencies have created has limited resources and solutions. Our country is too focused on cushions, and not focused enough on ladders.
    It's a problem moving forward. I work with both America and Foreign automotive manufacturing companies. It's obvious which ones reinvest for the future and which ones pull maximum possible money out of the business to pay bonuses for executives and dividends for investors.

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    Re: The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    While regulations and taxes are factors, the simple fact is that one can get 32 semi skilled workers for 14hrs for what one minimum wage worker gets for eight here.

    That is the draw. I don't see how even no taxes or regulations could possibly counter that differential.

    I have never read anything that even begins to challenge this simple fact.

    Until Americans can afford to accept $2/day, the middle class will continue to dissolve.
    Labor is important, but is only a percentage of the cost of finished goods. The issue many times comes down to risk, and ability to produce quickly.

    For example I purchase a specific kind of sub-assembly from China. I have to purchase that assembly in groups of no less than 100 pieces. It's a pain. It's a pain to deal with a supplier on the other side of the world. It's a pain to deal with quality issues that require attention from the other side of the world. I could go on.

    On the other hand, I can submit a design request for those sub-assemblies, and they can respond very quickly, ratcheting up production quickly to meet my demand. Here, I would have to expand my facilities, submit an EIR to the local government prior to being granted a right to do so. I would then have to submit a plan to address increased energy use to the various authorities so I can determine my increase industrial carbon footprint, and plan for potential offsets that may be required should my targets be off down the road. I could go on and on.

    The bottom line is the business climate in the United States caused by the multitude of state and local regulatory agencies is far more to blame than the targets the left loves to focus on.

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