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Thread: New York does away with Electoral College

  1. #251
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!!!
    More spewing by you. Figures.

    For some reason I doubt it will stop. Prove me wrong.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Thanks. Interesting story that I wasn't aware of (Though I am Sicilian and gratified that we actually did a war a some point in our history). I've been meaning to read more on Alcibiadas after I finish reading up on Belisarius.

    I agree with you that democracy are problematic. Where we disagree is on the idea that popularly elected government - or part of government - makes that government or part democratic. Just because Senators are popularly elected and not appointed by their legislatures doesn't necessarily make the Senate a democratic institution (I don't think). And if it does, since legislatures are democratically elected and express the will of the people does that not too make Senators democratic? I don't know - it's one of the questions I'm trying to work out for myself.

    Madison who laid the foundation for the constitution, had been trying to get government changed, he wanted a new government instead of revising the articles, he wrote Jefferson ,who had many books, ...for information on governments.

    Jefferson sent him books, and madsion read them, and found that the types of government that were in the world at that time were all failures, because the same ones of the past had failed.

    all governments start out with good intentions, but in the end they become tyrannical.

    Madison found that governments are also cylindrical....meaning they go around and around........they go from good to bad, fall, and then start over again......history shows us this.

    he wanted a government to last.

    monarchy rule of one..the monarch becomes a tyrant is time.

    aristocracy/oligarchy, rule of a few, in time creates a ruling class, with everyone else a serf.

    democracy, starts out good, but when the majority discovers it has the power....it votes itself money from the public tough, and creates laws which violates the rights of the minority, the mob is ruling...history shows this to.

    our founders took all 3 types governments and pitted them against each other, creating checks and balance, because no one holds all the power to be tyrannical.

    however because of the 17th, this shifted power, with the house being directly elected by the people, and a democracy, the people interest is secure, but the states power is gone, the senate is now a democracy directly elected, and the people control all of congress now, creating collective laws, talking away state powers, because the state is no longer able to stop it because the 17th took their voice away in the federal government, a check and balance of the constitution.

    this has allowed the federal government to step outside of the constitution, and take over state powers, creating laws which factions/ special interest groups, obtain, and control our government.

    Madison states in federalist 10 the democratic government have many factious combinations, because faction only has to seduce, beguile, and pursue 1 power in democratic government "the people", were as republican government, power is divided , and the interest of the house and the states are different making faction much less in republican government.

    since the president is part of a party, and the federal government is far outside of the constitution, no longer limited....he is able to buy votes by promising the average citizen things [wealth redistribution, get the evil rich] while he plays favoritism to certain groups of people promising them subsides, laws which benefit them, and punish their enemies.

    by turning over the vote of the electoral college to the people, this makes it a democratic vote also, and makes us a representative democracy, which violates the guarantee of the constitution of republican government article 4 section 4 , with divided power.

    the founders hated democratic forms of government because they are unstable forms of government and do not last.....however it was essential that the people have a voice in American government, that is why we have the house....giving the people power to prevent those would would seek to install an aristocracy, or a monarchy over us.
    Last edited by Master PO; 04-25-14 at 03:42 PM.

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    More spewing by you. Figures.

    For some reason I doubt it will stop. Prove me wrong.
    Have a super-duper weekend.
    “Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
    For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
    And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    Have a super-duper weekend.
    I knew you would prove me right.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    I knew you would prove me right.
    An extra special weekend to you my good, good friend.
    “Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
    For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
    And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    An extra special weekend to you my good, good friend.
    You did it again. Will wonders never cease?
    When are you going to change your socks?
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    You did it again. Will wonders never cease?
    When are you going to change your socks?
    A superb weekend to you old bean.
    “Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
    For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
    And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony60 View Post
    Now you are on to something! Those 3 votes have a value in a Presidential election. If we go to a popular vote, Wyoming is just a waste, any candidate that even considers going there would be wasting their time and money.

    Now, Republicans hardly campaign in California, only if they have a shot at those 55 votes will they go there. But it's not because California doesn't matter.
    Wyoming will still have 3 votes.
    NOW, Wyoming is a waste. No candidate considers going there. It would be wasting their time and money.
    NOW, California is an equal waste. No candidate considers going there. It would be wasting their time and money.
    80% of states and voters are written off and taken for granted.

    The indefensible reality is that more than 99% of campaign attention was showered on voters in just ten states in 2012- and that in today's political climate, the swing states have become increasingly fewer and fixed.

    Where you live should not determine how much, if at all, your vote matters.

    The current state-by-state winner-take-all method of awarding electoral votes (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states), ensures that the candidates, after the conventions, will not reach out to about 80% of the states and their voters. Candidates have no reason to poll, visit, advertise, organize, campaign, or care about the voter concerns in the dozens of states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind.

    Presidential candidates concentrate their attention on only a handful of closely divided "battleground" states and their voters. There is no incentive for them to bother to care about the majority of states where they are hopelessly behind or safely ahead to win.
    10 of the original 13 states are ignored now.
    Four out of five Americans were ignored in the 2012 presidential election. After being nominated, Obama visited just eight closely divided battleground states, and Romney visited only 10. These 10 states accounted for 98% of the $940 million spent on campaign advertising. They decided the election.
    None of the 10 most rural states mattered, as usual.
    About 80% of the country was ignored --including 24 of the 27 lowest population and medium-small states, and 13 medium and big states like CA, GA, NY, and TX.

    National Popular Vote ensures that every voter is equal, every voter will matter, in every state, in every presidential election, and the candidate with the most votes wins, as in virtually every other election in the country.

    Under National Popular Vote, every voter, everywhere, would be politically relevant and equal in every presidential election. Every vote would be included in the state counts and national count.

  9. #259
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    I appreciate that New York is a high population state, but why would most moderate and relatively low population states want to give up their "power" in choosing a President? If the nationwide vote was the determining factor, you can bet candidates would simply campaign in California, Texas, Florida, New York, Illinois, etc. and about 40 states would be virtually ignored. Same logic would prevail in any change to the makeup of the Senate.

    Personally, from the outside looking in, the American system with the Electoral College is one of the more interesting aspects of American politics and you'd be nuts to give it up.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Wyoming will still have 3 votes.
    NOW, Wyoming is a waste. No candidate considers going there. It would be wasting their time and money.
    NOW, California is an equal waste. No candidate considers going there. It would be wasting their time and money.
    80% of states and voters are written off and taken for granted.

    The indefensible reality is that more than 99% of campaign attention was showered on voters in just ten states in 2012- and that in today's political climate, the swing states have become increasingly fewer and fixed.

    Where you live should not determine how much, if at all, your vote matters.

    The current state-by-state winner-take-all method of awarding electoral votes (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states), ensures that the candidates, after the conventions, will not reach out to about 80% of the states and their voters. Candidates have no reason to poll, visit, advertise, organize, campaign, or care about the voter concerns in the dozens of states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind.

    Presidential candidates concentrate their attention on only a handful of closely divided "battleground" states and their voters. There is no incentive for them to bother to care about the majority of states where they are hopelessly behind or safely ahead to win.
    10 of the original 13 states are ignored now.
    Four out of five Americans were ignored in the 2012 presidential election. After being nominated, Obama visited just eight closely divided battleground states, and Romney visited only 10. These 10 states accounted for 98% of the $940 million spent on campaign advertising. They decided the election.
    None of the 10 most rural states mattered, as usual.
    About 80% of the country was ignored --including 24 of the 27 lowest population and medium-small states, and 13 medium and big states like CA, GA, NY, and TX.

    National Popular Vote ensures that every voter is equal, every voter will matter, in every state, in every presidential election, and the candidate with the most votes wins, as in virtually every other election in the country.

    Under National Popular Vote, every voter, everywhere, would be politically relevant and equal in every presidential election. Every vote would be included in the state counts and national count.
    [/QUOTE]

    Every vote already counts.

    Why would President Obama go to Wyoming? He was not going to get many votes there
    Why would Romney go to New York? He was not going to get many votes there.

    If anything, Obama would spend far more time in California and Romney in the South, to drive up the voter turnout of people would likely be vote for them anyhow.

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