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Thread: New York does away with Electoral College

  1. #141
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    I know this but with the popular voting nonsense an alternative is needed. I would think the compromise be keeping the electoral college but do away with winner take all and gerrymandering. Then the problem of representatives drawing their own districts goes the way of the dodo bird.
    I agree with the gerrymanders as my signature line states. Until gerrymandering is completely done away with, we will never have fair elections in this country. We complain about other nations and the way they handle their elections, but our is really corrupt, but that corruption is usually kept below the horizon. Our elected officials and candidates as a whole are bought, bribed is another word in the form of campaign cash.

    I think we have gone too far down the road to a direct democracy to turn back. The Republic is dead. Doing away with the electoral college only confirms that death. The people had their voice in the House of Representatives nationally and with all their state and local officials. The states were suppose to have their voice in the senate, pretty much done away with the 17th amendment and it is the states that cast their votes for the president contrary to popular belief.

    I think this compact is a fad, even if more states join it won't last. I could go into it more, but would take too much typing.
    Last edited by Perotista; 04-24-14 at 01:38 PM.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Video @:[/FONT][/COLOR]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_35DiUNLZI
    More found @: New York joins campaign to end Electoral College role in presidential elections - NY Daily News

    Honestly, I think we should get rid of the electoral college. I believe it only makes sense. If we are a democracy, why not be a democracy that elects its highest leader? I mean it only makes sense.. I mean I know what some people are going to say, "hey we arent a democracy, we are a republic!". But you can be a republic and a democracy at the same time. The electoral college is outdated and irrational with our political climate and system.
    A nation cannot be a republic and a democracy at the same time and this nation is a republic.

    Demacracy is nothing more than tyranny hence the complex electoral college.

    Many have called for the abolition of the EC for the last two centuries. According to one historian over two hundred amendments have been proposed in that time and all of them defeated.

    I may be wrong but I'm confident that NY and other states are stuck with the EC until the constitution is amended they may not simply pledge their votes to whom ever.

  3. #143
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    I know this but with the popular voting nonsense an alternative is needed. I would think the compromise be keeping the electoral college but do away with winner take all and gerrymandering. Then the problem of representatives drawing their own districts goes the way of the dodo bird.
    Okay, I have to explain this. Why I do not think this compact will not last and is a fad. All ten states are solid Democratic states that have agree with this, not one swing state or Republican state. Now keep in mind in the Electoral College there are what I call trustworthy states, states one party or the other can be counted on as pretty much automatically casting their electorate votes to that party. There are 43 of these states and DC. 7 state are swing or toss up states.

    Today the Democrats have 256 Electoral votes in their trustworthy column, although a couple of states like Pennsylvania and Michigan might be argued over. The Republicans have only 191 electoral votes in their trustworthy states with the remaining electoral votes coming from the swing/tossup states. 270 needed to win.

    Let’s say in 2016 Jeb Bush defeats Hillary Clinton by give or take one million votes in the popular vote total. But Hillary won all the Democrats trustworthy states plus Virginia and Iowa which would give Hillary a 275-261 victory in the Electoral College. Do you really expect heavily Democratic New York or California, Maryland, New Jersey, D.C., or any of the other states that are members of this compact to actually give all their electoral votes to Jeb Bush if he won the popular vote, but lost in those states? I do not think so. If they did the people of those states, the loyal Democratic voters would be up in arms, rioting in the streets, etc. etc. etc.

    I think as long as a Democrat wins the popular vote, the compact holds. If a Republican won the popular vote as in the example above, that compact would go the way of the old Warsaw Pact.
    Last edited by Perotista; 04-24-14 at 01:39 PM.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  4. #144
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    We still arent a direct democracy even if we elected someone to represent us. If we elect someone to represent us that means we are a representative democracy. Even if we directly elected the POTUS what is the problem with that? I mean the founders were not perfect by anyway, why is it so shocking to get rid of something that is ineffective and outdated?
    The electoral collage was crafted so that heavily populated northern industrial states couldn't abuse thinly populated agricultural southern states. It's not outdated and serves the same useful purpose today.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    The electoral collage was crafted so that heavily populated northern industrial states couldn't abuse thinly populated agricultural southern states. It's not outdated and serves the same useful purpose today.
    Those "thinly populated agricultural southern states" were populated with slaves and their owners.

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by mvymvy View Post
    Those "thinly populated agricultural southern states" were populated with slaves and their owners.
    the electoral college was created, as to not be a .........democratic vote.

    the founders created a republican form of government ,not a democratic form

    our American republic was to have ONLY 1 democratic element of the government...the House.

    this prevent democracy from taking hold in America, and government destroying itself.

    democratic forms of government are bad and unstable forms of government.

    John Adams An Essay on Man's Lust for Power
    Categories: Democracy
    Date: August 29, 1763
    [D]emocracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few.

    John Adams letter to John Taylor
    Categories: Democracy
    Date: April 15, 1814
    Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.

    James Madison The Federalist Papers Federalist No. 10
    Categories: Democracy
    Date: November 23, 1787
    [D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.


    Fisher Ames speech in the Massachusetts Ratifying Convention
    Categories: Democracy
    Date: January 15, 1788
    The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty.


    Alexander Hamilton Speech at the Constitutional Convention
    Categories: Democracy, Liberty / Freedom, Republican Government
    Date: June 26, 1787
    We are now forming a republican government. Ideal liberty is neither found in despotism or the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments.

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    Okay, I have to explain this. Why I do not think this compact will not last and is a fad. All ten states are solid Democratic states that have agree with this, not one swing state or Republican state. Now keep in mind in the Electoral College there are what I call trustworthy states, states one party or the other can be counted on as pretty much automatically casting their electorate votes to that party. There are 43 of these states and DC. 7 state are swing or toss up states.

    Today the Democrats have 256 Electoral votes in their trustworthy column, although a couple of states like Pennsylvania and Michigan might be argued over. The Republicans have only 191 electoral votes in their trustworthy states with the remaining electoral votes coming from the swing/tossup states. 270 needed to win.

    Let’s say in 2016 Jeb Bush defeats Hillary Clinton by give or take one million votes in the popular vote total. But Hillary won all the Democrats trustworthy states plus Virginia and Iowa which would give Hillary a 275-261 victory in the Electoral College. Do you really expect heavily Democratic New York or California, Maryland, New Jersey, D.C., or any of the other states that are members of this compact to actually give all their electoral votes to Jeb Bush if he won the popular vote, but lost in those states? I do not think so. If they did the people of those states, the loyal Democratic voters would be up in arms, rioting in the streets, etc. etc. etc.

    I think as long as a Democrat wins the popular vote, the compact holds. If a Republican won the popular vote as in the example above, that compact would go the way of the old Warsaw Pact.
    On February 12, 2014, the Oklahoma Senate passed the National Popular Vote bill by a 28–18 margin.
    The National Popular Vote bill has passed 33 state legislative chambers, in 22 rural, small, medium, and large population states, including one house in the recent battleground states of Michigan (16), Nevada (6), New Mexico (5), North Carolina (15), and both houses in Colorado (9) .
    The bill has passed 33 state legislative chambers, in 22 small, medium-small, medium, and large states.

    In Gallup polls since 1944, only about 20% of the public has supported the current system of awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided).

    Support for a national popular vote is strong among Republicans, Democrats, and Independent voters, as well as every demographic group in virtually every state surveyed in recent polls
    in recent or past closely divided Battleground states: CO – 68%, FL – 78%, IA --75%, MI – 73%, MO – 70%, NH – 69%, NV – 72%, NM– 76%, NC – 74%, OH – 70%, PA – 78%, VA – 74%, and WI – 71%;
    in Small states (3 to 5 electoral votes): AK – 70%, DC – 76%, DE – 75%, ID – 77%, ME – 77%, MT – 72%, NE 74%, NH – 69%, NV – 72%, NM – 76%, OK – 81%, RI – 74%, SD – 71%, UT – 70%, VT – 75%, WV – 81%, and WY – 69%;
    in Southern and Border states: AR – 80%, KY- 80%, MS – 77%, MO – 70%, NC – 74%, OK – 81%, SC – 71%, TN – 83%, VA – 74%, and WV – 81%; and
    in other states polled: AZ – 67%, CA – 70%, CT – 74%, MA – 73%, MN – 75%, NY – 79%, OR – 76%, and WA – 77%.

    The National Popular Vote bill says: "Any member state may withdraw from this agreement, except that a withdrawal occurring six months or less before the end of a President’s term shall not become effective until a President or Vice President shall have been qualified to serve the next term."

    Any attempt by a state to pull out of the compact in violation of its terms would violate the Impairments Clause of the U.S. Constitution and would be void. Such an attempt would also violate existing federal law. Compliance would be enforced by Federal court action

    The National Popular Vote compact is, first of all, a state law. It is a state law that would govern the manner of choosing presidential electors. A Secretary of State may not ignore or override the National Popular Vote law any more than he or she may ignore or override the winner-take-all method that is currently the law in 48 states.

    There has never been a court decision allowing a state to withdraw from an interstate compact without following the procedure for withdrawal specified by the compact. Indeed, courts have consistently rebuffed the occasional (sometimes creative) attempts by states to evade their obligations under interstate compacts

    An interstate compact is not a mere “handshake” agreement. If a state wants to rely on the goodwill and graciousness of other states to follow certain policies, it can simply enact its own state law and hope that other states decide to act in an identical manner. If a state wants a legally binding and enforceable mechanism by which it agrees to undertake certain specified actions only if other states agree to take other specified actions, it enters into an interstate compact.

    Interstate compacts are supported by over two centuries of settled law guaranteeing enforceability. Interstate compacts exist because the states are sovereign. If there were no Compacts Clause in the U.S. Constitution, a state would have no way to enter into a legally binding contract with another state. The Compacts Clause, supported by the Impairments Clause, provides a way for a state to enter into a contract with other states and be assured of the enforceability of the obligations undertaken by its sister states. The enforceability of interstate compacts under the Impairments Clause is precisely the reason why sovereign states enter into interstate compacts. Without the Compacts Clause and the Impairments Clause, any contractual agreement among the states would be, in fact, no more than a handshake.

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the electoral college was created, as to not be a .........democratic vote.

    the founders created a republican form of government ,not a democratic form

    our American republic was to have ONLY 1 democratic element of the government...the House.

    this prevent democracy from taking hold in America, and government destroying itself.

    democratic forms of government are bad and unstable forms of government.
    Unable to agree on any particular method, the Founding Fathers left the choice of method for selecting presidential electors exclusively to the states by adopting the language contained in section 1 of Article II of the U.S. Constitution-- "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors . . ." The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as "plenary" and "exclusive."

    The National Popular Vote bill preserves the Electoral College and state control of elections. It changes the way electoral votes are awarded in the Electoral College. The candidate with the most votes would win, as in virtually every other election in the country.

    Under National Popular Vote, every voter, everywhere, would be politically relevant and equal in every presidential election. Every vote would be included in the state counts and national count.

    When states with a combined total of at least 270 Electoral College votes enact the bill, the candidate with the most popular votes in all 50 states and DC would get the needed majority of 270+ Electoral College votes from the enacting states. The bill would thus guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes and the majority of Electoral College votes.

    The Republic is not in any danger from National Popular Vote.
    National Popular Vote has nothing to do with pure democracy. Pure democracy is a form of government in which people vote on policy initiatives directly. With National Popular Vote, the United States would still be a republic, in which citizens continue to elect the President by a majority of Electoral College votes by states, to represent us and conduct the business of government.

  9. #149
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by mvymvy View Post
    Unable to agree on any particular method, the Founding Fathers left the choice of method for selecting presidential electors exclusively to the states by adopting the language contained in section 1 of Article II of the U.S. Constitution-- "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors . . ." The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as "plenary" and "exclusive."

    The National Popular Vote bill preserves the Electoral College and state control of elections. It changes the way electoral votes are awarded in the Electoral College. The candidate with the most votes would win, as in virtually every other election in the country.

    Under National Popular Vote, every voter, everywhere, would be politically relevant and equal in every presidential election. Every vote would be included in the state counts and national count.

    When states with a combined total of at least 270 Electoral College votes enact the bill, the candidate with the most popular votes in all 50 states and DC would get the needed majority of 270+ Electoral College votes from the enacting states. The bill would thus guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes and the majority of Electoral College votes.

    The Republic is not in any danger from National Popular Vote.
    National Popular Vote has nothing to do with pure democracy. Pure democracy is a form of government in which people vote on policy initiatives directly. With National Popular Vote, the United States would still be a republic, in which citizens continue to elect the President by a majority of Electoral College votes by states, to represent us and conduct the business of government.

    sorry wrong....

    the government of the u.s. will never be a pure/direct democracy.

    it has moved towards representative democracy, away from a republic of mixed government, were power is divided......

    under a national popular vote........power is not divided............which is what you do not realize.

    in democratic forms of government the people are the dominate factor......in a republic of the founders.........there is no dominate factor.

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Video @:[/FONT][/COLOR]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_35DiUNLZI
    More found @: New York joins campaign to end Electoral College role in presidential elections - NY Daily News

    Honestly, I think we should get rid of the electoral college. I believe it only makes sense. If we are a democracy, why not be a democracy that elects its highest leader? I mean it only makes sense.. I mean I know what some people are going to say, "hey we arent a democracy, we are a republic!". But you can be a republic and a democracy at the same time. The electoral college is outdated and irrational with our political climate and system.
    Your title is just a bit misleading, as New York - or any other state - cannot get rid of the Electoral College. However, I do agree that the popular vote for the office of President should be how the winner is determined. It will never happen because the Senators from the small states would never ratify any constitutional amendme3nt abolishing it.
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