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Thread: New York does away with Electoral College

  1. #131
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Kal, stop asking for impossibles. Every political party has used this, and will use this. The real issue isn't what the politicians do. It's what the unwashed masses of stupidity allow them to do.

    When you get that truth, you'll see gerry mandering is a minor part of the problem.
    Stupid people voting is definately a problem. But nothing can change that except those people. But that is going to happen regardless of the electoral college or straight democracy elected people.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  2. #132
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    So instead of winner take all how about let the winners of the state get the 2 extra electors and the rest of the electors of the state are elected by the district vote?
    Nebraska and Maine do this already. Each state can decide how to elect or chose their electors in anyway them so deem. Until 1868 there were still some state legislatures choosing their electors without any popular voting.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  3. #133
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by mvymvy View Post
    A nationwide presidential campaign, with every voter equal, would be run the way presidential candidates campaign to win the electoral votes of closely divided battleground states, such as Ohio and Florida, under the state-by-state winner-take-all methods. The big cities in those battleground states do not receive all the attention, much less control the outcome. Cleveland and Miami do not receive all the attention or control the outcome in Ohio and Florida. In the 4 states that accounted for over two-thirds of all general-election activity in the 2012 presidential election, rural areas, suburbs, exurbs, and cities all received attention—roughly in proportion to their population.

    The itineraries of presidential candidates in battleground states (and their allocation of other campaign resources in battleground states) reflect the political reality that every gubernatorial or senatorial candidate knows. When and where every voter is equal, a campaign must be run everywhere.

    With National Popular Vote, when every voter is equal, everywhere, it makes sense for presidential candidates to try and elevate their votes where they are and aren't so well liked. But, under the state-by-state winner-take-all laws, it makes no sense for a Democrat to try and do that in Vermont or Wyoming, or for a Republican to try it in Wyoming or Vermont.

    Even in California state-wide elections, candidates for governor or U.S. Senate don't campaign just in Los Angeles and San Francisco, and those places don't control the outcome (otherwise California wouldn't have recently had Republican governors Reagan, Dukemejian, Wilson, and Schwarzenegger). A vote in rural Alpine county is just an important as a vote in Los Angeles. If Los Angeles cannot control statewide elections in California, it can hardly control a nationwide election.

    In fact, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Jose, and Oakland together cannot control a statewide election in California.

    Similarly, Republicans dominate Texas politics without carrying big cities such as Dallas and Houston.

    There are numerous other examples of Republicans who won races for governor and U.S. Senator in other states that have big cities (e.g., New York, Illinois, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts) without ever carrying the big cities of their respective states.

    With a national popular vote, every voter everywhere will be equally important politically. There will be nothing special about a vote cast in a big city or big state. When every voter is equal, candidates of both parties will seek out voters in small, medium, and large towns throughout the states in order to win. A vote cast in a big city or state will be equal to a vote cast in a small state, town, or rural area.

    Candidates would have to appeal to a broad range of demographics, and perhaps even more so, because the election wouldn’t be capable of coming down to just one demographic, such as waitress mom voters in Ohio.
    Florida was only important in 2000 because Al Gore failed to win his home state of Tennessee. If Gore had won there, Florida wouldn't have meant beans. Then there was the role the media played in Florida, first announcing Gore had won the state when in the Florida panhandle its polls were still open. The panhandle is deeply Republican, so how many more votes Bush might have gotten there that because of the announcement the Gore had won Florida, they just stayed home is unknown and impossible to figure. Then the media changed their minds about Florida and called it for Bush in the wee morning hours before Florida went to their recount the next day.

    Needless to say, Florida was all messed up for a number of reasons. As for doing away with the electoral college, it is probably the lone vestage we have left as far as being a Republic of the several states vs. a direct democracy.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  4. #134
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    Nebraska and Maine do this already. Each state can decide how to elect or chose their electors in anyway them so deem. Until 1868 there were still some state legislatures choosing their electors without any popular voting.
    I know this but with the popular voting nonsense an alternative is needed. I would think the compromise be keeping the electoral college but do away with winner take all and gerrymandering. Then the problem of representatives drawing their own districts goes the way of the dodo bird.
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  5. #135
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    From Websters 1828 dictionary -

    Republic
    1. A commonwealth; a state in which the exercise of the sovereign power is lodged in representatives elected by the people. In modern usage, it differs from a democracy or democratic state, in which the people exercise the powers of sovereignty in person. Yet the democracies of Greece are often called republics.


    The definition, which was operative during the drafting of our constitution and which we can assume is the definition the drafters used, says nothing about how our representatives or the executive are chosen.

    As far as I can tell the term representative democracy didn't even exist at the time of the drafting of the Constitution.

    I'd also point out that our representatives are constrained by the Constitution not by the manner in which they are chosen.
    i typed a very long reply to you, and in trying to post it, i lost all the info...making be sick

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    From Websters 1828 dictionary -

    Republic
    1. A commonwealth; a state in which the exercise of the sovereign power is lodged in representatives elected by the people. In modern usage, it differs from a democracy or democratic state, in which the people exercise the powers of sovereignty in person. Yet the democracies of Greece are often called republics.


    The definition, which was operative during the drafting of our constitution and which we can assume is the definition the drafters used, says nothing about how our representatives or the executive are chosen.

    As far as I can tell the term representative democracy didn't even exist at the time of the drafting of the Constitution.

    I'd also point out that our representatives are constrained by the Constitution not by the manner in which they are chosen.
    i dont know if i will type is again...but i will tell you ..to the founders a democratic republic is a oxymoron.

    the word "republic" has changed since the founders..today having a different meaning

  7. #137
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    I just love when today's political hacks decide that they are able to come up with a better system than the founders. They usually come up with something stupid, something that favors them, something that hurts the country, like this.
    "We have met the enemy and they are ours..." -- Oliver Hazard Perry
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  8. #138
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Stupid people voting is definately a problem. But nothing can change that except those people. But that is going to happen regardless of the electoral college or straight democracy elected people.
    Straight democracy will merely enhance the stupidity. Just like with allowing the "people" to vote for senators, it's a bad idea to change the EC in favor a DD system. It's like history speaks and falls on the ears of arrogant fools, this cycle repeats itself down through the ages.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  9. #139
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by mvymvy View Post
    In Gallup polls since 1944, only about 20% of the public has supported the current system of awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided).

    Support for a national popular vote is strong among Republicans, Democrats, and Independent voters, as well as every demographic group in virtually every state surveyed in recent polls
    in recent or past closely divided Battleground states: CO – 68%, FL – 78%, IA --75%, MI – 73%, MO – 70%, NH – 69%, NV – 72%, NM– 76%, NC – 74%, OH – 70%, PA – 78%, VA – 74%, and WI – 71%;
    in Small states (3 to 5 electoral votes): AK – 70%, DC – 76%, DE – 75%, ID – 77%, ME – 77%, MT – 72%, NE 74%, NH – 69%, NV – 72%, NM – 76%, OK – 81%, RI – 74%, SD – 71%, UT – 70%, VT – 75%, WV – 81%, and WY – 69%;
    in Southern and Border states: AR – 80%, KY- 80%, MS – 77%, MO – 70%, NC – 74%, OK – 81%, SC – 71%, TN – 83%, VA – 74%, and WV – 81%; and
    in other states polled: AZ – 67%, CA – 70%, CT – 74%, MA – 73%, MN – 75%, NY – 79%, OR – 76%, and WA – 77%.

    The bill has passed 33 state legislative chambers in 22 rural, small, medium, and large states with 250 electoral votes.

    NationalPopularVote
    Why are leftwingers the ones always pushing this so hard on this forum then?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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  10. #140
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    From Websters 1828 dictionary -

    Republic
    1. A commonwealth; a state in which the exercise of the sovereign power is lodged in representatives elected by the people. In modern usage, it differs from a democracy or democratic state, in which the people exercise the powers of sovereignty in person. Yet the democracies of Greece are often called republics.


    The definition, which was operative during the drafting of our constitution and which we can assume is the definition the drafters used, says nothing about how our representatives or the executive are chosen.

    As far as I can tell the term representative democracy didn't even exist at the time of the drafting of the Constitution.

    I'd also point out that our representatives are constrained by the Constitution not by the manner in which they are chosen.

    what is a republican form of government,?....it is a mixed government.[federalist 40]

    what is mixed government?..... it is a monarchy, aristocracy, and a democracy rolled into 1 government[American government], with 2 non democratic votes and 1 democratic vote...making it republican.

    the electoral college, and the senate are non democratic votes, vs the 1 democratic vote of the house.

    what is the difference, between a republican form of government and a democratic form?........a republican form has NO dominate factor, vs a dominate factor in democratic forms which is "the people".

    to the founders a "democratic republic" is an oxymoron, ......because no form of government exist in 1787......a republican form and a democratic form are conflicting forms of government.

    the founders created American government on the Roman Republic which was a good and stable form of government, were as democratic governments are bad and unstable forms of government.

    the word "republic" has changed since the founders created the constitution, in 1789 the french revolution was a democratic movement of the people ,however they called France a republic, which it was not, ...however again the term stuck, and republic today means anything which is not a monarchy.

    you see the people's republic of china, the USSR, these are not republics to the founders.

    in constitutional law, all states and the federal government must be republican in their form, ...to be anything other than republican is unconstitutional, and any state changing it form of government to any other form would have to leave the union, this is constitutional law.

    however constitutional law is not being followed.


    i welcome questions!
    Last edited by Master PO; 04-24-14 at 01:14 PM.

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