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Thread: New York does away with Electoral College

  1. #121
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by mvymvy View Post
    We do and would vote state by state. Each state manages its own election and is prepared to conduct a recount.

    The 2000 presidential election was an artificial crisis created because of Bush's lead of 537 popular votes in Florida. Gore's nationwide lead was 537,179 popular votes (1,000 times larger). Given the miniscule number of votes that are changed by a typical statewide recount (averaging only 274 votes); no one would have requested a recount or disputed the results in 2000 if the national popular vote had controlled the outcome. Indeed, no one (except perhaps almanac writers and trivia buffs) would have cared that one of the candidates happened to have a 537-vote margin in Florida.

    Recounts are far more likely in the current system of state-by-state winner-take-all methods.

    The possibility of recounts should not even be a consideration in debating the merits of a national popular vote. No one has ever suggested that the possibility of a recount constitutes a valid reason why state governors or U.S. Senators, for example, should not be elected by a popular vote.

    The question of recounts comes to mind in connection with presidential elections only because the current system creates artificial crises and unnecessary disputes.


    The state-by-state winner-take-all system is not a firewall, but instead causes unnecessary fires.
    “It’s an arsonist itching to burn down the whole neighborhood by torching a single house.” Hertzberg

    Given that there is a recount only once in about 160 statewide elections, and given there is a presidential election once every four years, one would expect a recount about once in 640 years with the National Popular Vote. The actual probability of a close national election would be even less than that because recounts are less likely with larger pools of votes.

    The average change in the margin of victory as a result of a statewide recount was a mere 296 votes in a 10-year study of 2,884 elections.

    No recount would have been warranted in any of the nation’s 57 previous presidential elections if the outcome had been based on the nationwide count.

    The common nationwide date for meeting of the Electoral College has been set by federal law as the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December. With both the current system and the National Popular Vote, all counting, recounting, and judicial proceedings must be conducted so as to reach a "final determination" prior to the meeting of the Electoral College. In particular, the U.S. Supreme Court has made it clear that the states are expected to make their "final determination" six days before the Electoral College meets.
    So instead of winner take all how about let the winners of the state get the 2 extra electors and the rest of the electors of the state are elected by the district vote?
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    This has been discussed in Pensylvania by the GOP since their victories there in 2010.
    For some reason, they haven't pulled this particular "nuclear" trigger yet .
    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    So instead of winner take all how about let the winners of the state get the 2 extra electors and the rest of the electors of the state are elected by the district vote?
    Physics is Phun

  3. #123
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    This has been discussed in Pensylvania by the GOP since their victories there in 2010.
    For some reason, they haven't pulled this particular "nuclear" trigger yet .
    What's nuclear about it? I wish it was that way in California. If it was we would be a major swing state again amongst other things. Winner of the state popular vote would still get +2 electoral votes.
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  4. #124
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    once the electoral college is gone, we are a full representative democracy....which is a democratic form of government.

    the constitution guarantees a......... republican form of government.

    since it is no longer guaranteed, those states which do not want a democratic form of government, do not have to stay in the union.- federalist 39

    according to constitutional law, all states and the federal government must be republican, if not a state MUST LEAVE THE UNION, IT CANNOT STAY...however when Oregon started the democratic movement it was not forced out of the union like it should have been.

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    once the electoral college is gone, we are a full representative democracy....which is a democratic form of government.

    the constitution guarantees a......... republican form of government.

    since it is no longer guaranteed, those states which do not want a democratic form of government, do not have to stay in the union.- federalist 39

    according to constitutional law, all states and the federal government must be republican, if not a state MUST LEAVE THE UNION, IT CANNOT STAY...however when Oregon started the democratic movement it was not forced out of the union like it should have been.
    From Websters 1828 dictionary -

    Republic
    1. A commonwealth; a state in which the exercise of the sovereign power is lodged in representatives elected by the people. In modern usage, it differs from a democracy or democratic state, in which the people exercise the powers of sovereignty in person. Yet the democracies of Greece are often called republics.


    The definition, which was operative during the drafting of our constitution and which we can assume is the definition the drafters used, says nothing about how our representatives or the executive are chosen.

    As far as I can tell the term representative democracy didn't even exist at the time of the drafting of the Constitution.

    I'd also point out that our representatives are constrained by the Constitution not by the manner in which they are chosen.
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Instead of getting rid of the electoral college why not put a stop to gerry mandering? That's where the problem lies. Not the electoral college. In today's day and age its not impossible to stop gerry mandering. We have a census every 10 years. Use it to define a districts lines, not politicians.
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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    So instead of winner take all how about let the winners of the state get the 2 extra electors and the rest of the electors of the state are elected by the district vote?
    Yeah, this is the bizarre thing about this dumb plan. They could have simply had each state in the pact agree to divide their EVs based on state results and then the people of that state would still have their vote counted. As they have it now every citizen of every other state has, essentially, two votes in every election, one placed for their state's EVs, the other vote for this pact's EVs.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    This is great. I can't wait until enough states sign it that they reach the 270 needed for it to take effect. I never thought I'd see the electoral college go away, but it's looking like I might get to after all.
    You want it to go away for political reasons, which is why it's in place now. Sad.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Video @:[/FONT][/COLOR]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_35DiUNLZI
    More found @: New York joins campaign to end Electoral College role in presidential elections - NY Daily News

    Honestly, I think we should get rid of the electoral college. I believe it only makes sense. If we are a democracy, why not be a democracy that elects its highest leader? I mean it only makes sense.. I mean I know what some people are going to say, "hey we arent a democracy, we are a republic!". But you can be a republic and a democracy at the same time. The electoral college is outdated and irrational with our political climate and system.
    You hit the nail on the hit if we were a democracy. We are a Republic made up of the several states. But we have been heading more and more towards a direct democracy since the passage of the 17th amendment the erosion of state powers by the federal government. One of the reason our founding fathers and framers choose a republic was they considered it just as bad facing absolute tyranny from a monarch, dictator, despot and the same from the majority over the minority.

    They also left it to each individual state legislature to determine how each state choose their electors, read Article II, Section 1. In fact in the 1792 election only 6 states out of 15 chose their electors by any form of popular vote. State legislatures was the rule of the day in choosing their state electors. Those 6 states remained the only state to have some form of popular vote until 1804 when 5 more states began using a form of popular voting for president to choose their electors. then it was 11 out of 17 states. But by 1812 the idea of popular voting fell and only 9 of 18 states used a form of popular voting. By 1824 the figure was 15 out of 24 states using a form of popular voting. Even in the 1832 election Delaware and South Carolina state legislatures decided whom their electors would vote for. It wasn't until 1868 that finally all states used some form of popular vote to decide whom their electors would be.

    Even today Nebraska and Maine award their electors a little different than from the winner take all of the other 48 states. They award one elector per the winner of a congressional district and the final two to whom ever wins the state. Thus Nebraska in 2008 cast 4 Electoral votes for McCain and one for Obama as Obama won one of Nebraska's Congressional districts. So states still can decide how their electors will be chosen.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: New York does away with Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Instead of getting rid of the electoral college why not put a stop to gerry mandering? That's where the problem lies. Not the electoral college. In today's day and age its not impossible to stop gerry mandering. We have a census every 10 years. Use it to define a districts lines, not politicians.
    Kal, stop asking for impossibles. Every political party has used this, and will use this. The real issue isn't what the politicians do. It's what the unwashed masses of stupidity allow them to do.

    When you get that truth, you'll see gerry mandering is a minor part of the problem.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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