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Thread: CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds

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    Re: CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Torture always works when done for verifiable information, as opposed to confession.
    Do you have a source for that?

    Besides the moral problems, torture usually leads to false intelligence if any, like the kind that "misled" our nation into war with Iraq. Just what we need right? More bad intelligence. It was recently confirmed that the waterboarding program didn't result in any useful intel for capturing bin Laden. But you know they tried, 180+ times on KSM alone.

    "The torture of suspects [at Abu Ghraib] did not lead to any useful intelligence information being extracted," says James Corum, a professor at the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College and the author of a forthcoming book on counterinsurgency warfare. "The abusers couldn't even use the old 'ends justify the means' argument, because in the end there was nothing to show but a tremendous propaganda defeat for the United States."

    Marine Major Sherwood F. Moran, the report's author, noted that despite the complexities and difficulties of dealing with an enemy from such a hostile and alien culture, some American interrogators consistently managed to extract useful information from prisoners. The successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subjects. They were nice to them.

    Truth Extraction - Stephen Budiansky - The Atlantic
    Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea."

    Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."

    The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)
    With some people you have to be a little bit "not nice", but when you torture someone it's not like in the movies where they finally spill their guts. They're just going to say whatever they think you want to hear so it will stop. Which is pointless.

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    Re: CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Do you have a source for that?
    I have logic and reason. When the answer is checked and not true, the torture gets worse. Eventually, the real answer comes out.

    Claims of torture not working are regarding confessions, not verifiable information.

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    Re: CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I have logic and reason. When the answer is checked and not true, the torture gets worse. Eventually, the real answer comes out.

    Claims of torture not working are regarding confessions, not verifiable information.
    Logic and reasoning only goes so far if it hasn't been proven in practice. Former military personnel who have actually interrogated enemy prisoners during wartime were looking for verifiable information, not confessions, and they are saying the exact opposite of what you're saying. I provided links to show you that.

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    Re: CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Logic and reasoning only goes so far if it hasn't been proven in practice. Former military personnel who have actually interrogated enemy prisoners during wartime were looking for verifiable information, not confessions, and they are saying the exact opposite of what you're saying. I provided links to show you that.
    You have one person, with a clear agenda, making claims. And he never said it doesn't work, merely that he doesn't think it's necessary.

    Your source DOES NOT claim what you say it does.

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    Re: CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds

    War is brutal, we've forgotten that.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You have one person, with a clear agenda, making claims.
    Clearly you didn't read all of my post, nor did you visit either of the links.

    - Marine Major Sherwood F. Moran interrogated Japanese prisoners of war and literally wrote the book on military interrogations.

    - Air Force Col. John Rothrock headed a combat interrogation unit in Vietnam.

    - Army Col. Stuart Herrington conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama, and Iraq.

    One person with a clear agenda? Please read posts before you reply, you're making yourself look foolish here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    And he never said it doesn't work, merely that he doesn't think it's necessary.
    - Marine Major Sherwood F. Moran (interrogator in WW2) reported that his interrogators were more successful when they didn't torture.

    - Army Col. Stuart Herrington (interrogator in Vietnam) said torture is not a good way to get information.

    - Air Force Col. John Rothrock (interrogator in Vietnam, Panama, and Iraq) said he doesn't know any professional intelligence officers of his generation who would think torture is a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Your source DOES NOT claim what you say it does.
    Yes it does, you just chose not to read it.

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    Re: CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Yes it does, you just chose not to read it.
    None of those sources claim that torture for verifiable information doesn't work. The one article you quoted claimed a "ticking time bomb" was planned attacks against Americans, but under those circumstances, that was not VERIFIABLE information.

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    Re: CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    None of those sources claim that torture for verifiable information doesn't work. The one article you quoted claimed a "ticking time bomb" was planned attacks against Americans, but under those circumstances, that was not VERIFIABLE information.
    Actually, it was a "ticking time bomb" scenario where there were plans to attack American troops, not an actual ticking time bomb. And it is verifiable because if the attack/killing occurs, or doesn't, there's your verification. What other information would be interesting to a combat interrogator except verifiable information? They aren't looking for confessions like "yea, I sniped that officer the other day."

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    Re: CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Actually, it was a "ticking time bomb" scenario where there were plans to attack American troops, not an actual ticking time bomb. And it is verifiable because if the attack/killing occurs, or doesn't, there's your verification.
    That does not qualify as verifiable information. The information possibly being verified at a later time does not constitute 'verifiable'.

    You have misrepresented sources and now you are offering nonsense. Are you done pushing your agenda?

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    Re: CIA's 'Harsh Interrogations' Exceeded Legal Authority, Report Finds

    I do understand the arguments for both sides of this debate on torture usage. However, the intelligence community admits that most information received through these methods was not real intel, but rather lies that detainees told in order to make the torture stop. Now, if one made the argument that if one attack is stopped then the practice is validated, but I would argue that the direct hit our image as a nation takes, as well as the problems it creates for us in the international community, as torture is strictly against our professed values, the practices of torture are simply not worth it.

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