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Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

I thought it was HL that was suing the government because they didn't want emergency contraceptives offered under their group health insurance policy. But now you are saying that HL is being sued? By whom?
My wording stands corrected. Yes...they are suing. They dont wish to be forced to provide emergency contraception...translation...abortion meds. A company that was prior to Obamacare of their own will providing an above average wage for unskilled workers AND insurance for their employees objected to being forced to provide for abortions as well. And Sotomayors (and one you apparently agree with) is for Hobby Lobby to DROP the insurance coverage of their staff and then pay a $2000 per employee ($30,000,000.00) fine to the fed.
 
Are you saying that my employer gives me money for work in my paycheck and when I stop at 7-11 they own the beer that I buy?



>>>>

Thats an interesting analogy. Could it also apply to employee health insurance? For instance, the employee works for the health insurance, choses which plan that fits their needs and budget and pay the deductibles and co-payments for the benefits they use. So does the company own the employees health insurance anymore than they own the employees 401k....or beer?
 
You are mistaken.

Plan B only delays ovulation.
It does not inhibit implantation.

No i am not mistaken. that is just 2 of the possibilities and it depends on where you are.

from webmd

It is also possible that this type of emergency birth control prevents implantation of a fertilized egg in the uterus by altering its lining

no it contains 1.5 milligrams of levonorgestrel

The webmd website you linked is outdated as proved by the Catholic Journal Article I posted a few posts back.:

Catholic journal says Plan B does not cause abortions

Plan B, the nation’s most widely used emergency contraceptive, works only as a contraceptive and does not cause abortions, according to an article in the January-February issue of Health Progress, the official journal of the Catholic Health Association.

Catholic journal says Plan B does not cause abortions | National Catholic Reporter




Levonorgestrel is a type of the hormone progestin researchers have found prevents pregnancy

From this EC website:

Progestin-only emergency contraceptive pills ("morning after pills") are pills that contain levonorgestrel, a type of the hormone progestin researchers have found prevents pregnancy when taken in the few days after sex. In the United States, there are currently three progestin-only emergency contraceptive pills that may be available for sale: Plan B One-Step, Next Choice One Dose, Next Choice and Levonorgestrel Tablets.



Emergency Contraception: Progestin-only pills as emergency contraceptives
 
My wording stands corrected. Yes...they are suing. They dont wish to be forced to provide emergency contraception...translation...abortion meds. A company that was prior to Obamacare of their own will providing an above average wage for unskilled workers AND insurance for their employees objected to being forced to provide for abortions as well. And Sotomayors (and one you apparently agree with) is for Hobby Lobby to DROP the insurance coverage of their staff and then pay a $2000 per employee ($30,000,000.00) fine to the fed.
Just one problem with HL complaint, the drugs that they object to aren't drugs that induce abortion....they're contraceptives that prevent pregnancy. Big difference, don't you think?


Sotomayor wasn't giving advice...she was giving an opinion as it pertained to the law, remember?
 
Your employer gives you extra money to invest in 7-11? They must like big gulps.

Purchasing a beer (or big gulp) is not an "investment" in the companies stock, it's a purchase. Just because a company pays me for work and I buy a beer on my way home that does not mean that the company bought the beer.

No, if my employer matches a percentage of my earnings as part of my 401(k) and that income is mine. I then invest it in the funds I've selected with the Fund Manager. Once deposited into my check to be routed to my investment account it is no longer the organizations money, it's mine. So if they make a match and I invest in funds that have 7-11 as part of the portfolio then that is my money not the companies.



>>>>
 
If they are contributing money that buys stock in those companies they are certainly "investing" and supporting those companies. That's the slippery slope they have chosen. It is also why they will fail in this foolish effort.

They're not doing any investing. They contributing money to a retirement plan and likely have no idea where their employees are putting that money.
 
The webmd website you linked is outdated as proved by the Catholic Journal Article I posted a few posts back.:



Catholic journal says Plan B does not cause abortions | National Catholic Reporter




Levonorgestrel is a type of the hormone progestin researchers have found prevents pregnancy

From this EC website:





Emergency Contraception: Progestin-only pills as emergency contraceptives

i think i will believe the webmd post thanks. it is in line with the other articles out there.

plan b does prevent the attachment of a fertilized egg as part of the drug. to HL that is considered an abortion. that is their religious belief backed up by science.
Plan B (Levonorgestrel) Drug Information: Medication Guide and Patient Information - Prescribing Information at RxList

basically backs up the webmd site.

It is possible that Plan B® (levonorgestrel) may also work by preventing fertilization of an egg (the uniting of sperm with the egg) or by preventing attachment (implantation) to the uterus (womb),

i think you need to do some more research before saying people are wrong.
 
Just one problem with HL complaint, the drugs that they object to aren't drugs that induce abortion....they're contraceptives that prevent pregnancy. Big difference, don't you think?


Sotomayor wasn't giving advice...she was giving an opinion as it pertained to the law, remember?

it depends on your point of view. to HL and many christians life begins at conception (when sperm meets egg). any drug that would stop the egg from attaching to the uterus would be considered an abortion. most birth control pills prevent sperm and egg from meeting therefore no conception takes place.

that is the difference.
 
it depends on your point of view. to HL and many christians life begins at conception (when sperm meets egg). any drug that would stop the egg from attaching to the uterus would be considered an abortion. most birth control pills prevent sperm and egg from meeting therefore no conception takes place.

that is the difference.

Where does the bible say that life begins when sperm meets egg? In Genesis it says life begins with the breath of life from God. So now the government should determine when life begins...based on HL's interpretation of the bible?

Hobby Lobby owners incorporated their company...that means the company is a separate entity from the owners and doesn't have religious belief. So why should the government consider the owners personal beliefs if they aren't personally or legally liable for the company?
 
Where does the bible say that life begins when sperm meets egg? In Genesis it says life begins with the breath of life from God. So now the government should determine when life begins...based on HL's interpretation of the bible?

Hobby Lobby owners incorporated their company...that means the company is a separate entity from the owners and doesn't have religious belief. So why should the government consider the owners personal beliefs if they aren't personally or legally liable for the company?

now you are just being obtuse.

it doesn't matter when the government thinks life begins that is not the argument.
their company has the right to free speech and is able to do other things under the first amendment so why is religious belief excluded when it is protected under the 1st amendment as well.

the company is only separate in a financial sense.
 
In other words, not all employees may share the same subjective value of morals as the owner.

do you know all the mutual funds you invest in and every company that they do?
i am sure they are invested in energy, manufacturing and other non-green eco friendly stuff that i am sure you support. so does that mean you are a hypocrite?
 
Hello again all,

Just found this little nugget. If true, it would certainly be a blow to the Hobby Lobby position (their standing with the rest of us, including those who defend them), if not to their case pending in front of the SCOTUS as well. A company that protests being forced to comply with a mandate to provide contraceptive coverage (including IUD's and Plan B Contraceptives) based on their religious objection to those services either has no business investing in these companies, or has no business arguing that their religious beliefs provide them with an exception to avoid providing services they religiously object to while continuing to invest in companies that manufacture those products.

Thoughts?


Yeah, I have a thought. The Hobby Lobby owner needs to get a hobby. And one that doesn't involve trying to impose his religious dogma off on others.
 
now you are just being obtuse.
So are you.

it doesn't matter when the government thinks life begins that is not the argument.
their company has the right to free speech and is able to do other things under the first amendment so why is religious belief excluded when it is protected under the 1st amendment as well.

the company is only separate in a financial sense.
If HL is incorporated then it is separated from the owners in a legal sense. That is the point of incorporating.


"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Lemon v. Kurtzman, 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971)

Established the three part test for determining if an action of government violates First Amendment's separation of church and state:
1) the government action must have a secular purpose;
2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion;
3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and religion.



Is the government prohibiting HL owner's from practicing their religion? No.

Is the government advancing or sponsering HL owner's religion if they change a secular law to fit HLs belief? Yes.

Is the government violating the first amendment if it gives legal cover and tax breaks to a company that uses its religion to make a profit off the public? Yes.
 
i think i will believe the webmd post thanks. it is in line with the other articles out there.

plan b does prevent the attachment of a fertilized egg as part of the drug. to HL that is considered an abortion. that is their religious belief backed up by science.
Plan B (Levonorgestrel) Drug Information: Medication Guide and Patient Information - Prescribing Information at RxList

basically backs up the webmd site.

It is possible that Plan B® (levonorgestrel) may also work by preventing fertilization of an egg (the uniting of sperm with the egg) or by preventing attachment (implantation) to the uterus (womb),

i think you need to do some more research before saying people are wrong.

I have done research. I have medical knowledge and I know progesterone is used to help implantation in IVF and to help prevent miscarriages in high risk pregnancies.

Since Plan B has no estrogen in it it does not thicken the lining of the uterus and does not prevent implantation.

Plan B only works before fertilization.

I said you were mistaken , it is not your fault that there is a lot of old misinformation on the web.

I am just trying to help others understand how Plan B really works.
 
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I have done research. I have medical knowledge and I know progesterone is used to help implantation in IVF and to help prevent miscarriages in high risk pregnancies.

Since Plan B has no estrogen in it it does not thicken the lining of the uterus and does not prevent implantation.

Plan B only works before fertilization.

I said you were mistaken , it is not your fault that there is a lot of old misinformation on the web.

I am just trying to help others understand how Plan B really works.

i have just posted 2 links that says you are wrong i think i will believe them. one is a prescription site. anonymous internet poster vs medical doctor sites hmm medical doctor site wins
calling it old information does not make it so. medical websites would update themselves to the current prescription uses more so a drug/prescription site.
 
So are you.
You obviously do not know what obtuse means.

If HL is incorporated then it is separated from the owners in a legal sense. That is the point of incorporating.
Legal as far as finances go. that is the only reason to incorporate is to protect your finances.


Is the government prohibiting HL owner's from practicing their religion? No.

Is the government advancing or sponsering HL owner's religion if they change a secular law to fit HLs belief? Yes.

Is the government violating the first amendment if it gives legal cover and tax breaks to a company that uses its religion to make a profit off the public? Yes.

You are incorrect on the first one. forcing them to buy something that violates their religious practice actually does violate their religious freedom.
that is why they are in court.
 
You obviously do not know what obtuse means.
Stop being obtuse.


Legal as far as finances go. that is the only reason to incorporate is to protect your finances.
Legal as far as the law goes, too. People incorporate so they can't be sued or held personally or legally liable for the company. People file for incorporation with the government, not a bank or a broker.


You are incorrect on the first one. forcing them to buy something that violates their religious practice actually does violate their religious freedom.
that is why they are in court.
With incorporation in mind....do the owners pay for the company employee's health insurance out of their own pocket or the companies pocket?
 
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I have done research. I have medical knowledge and I know progesterone is used to help implantation in IVF and to help prevent miscarriages in high risk pregnancies.

Since Plan B has no estrogen in it it does not thicken the lining of the uterus and does not prevent implantation.

Plan B only works before fertilization.

I said you were mistaken , it is not your fault that there is a lot of old misinformation on the web.

I am just trying to help others understand how Plan B really works.

Minnie...

I'm glad you posted this. I was wrong about Plan B, too. I thought that it prevented implantation...rather than doing it's work prior to fertilization.

I just realized what I was reading was possibly about as specific type of IUD, which does cause the thickening of the lining. Am I on track? But, in any case, not sure about all IUDs as I know they make them several ways.
 
i have just posted 2 links that says you are wrong i think i will believe them. one is a prescription site. anonymous internet poster vs medical doctor sites hmm medical doctor site wins
calling it old information does not make it so. medical websites would update themselves to the current prescription uses more so a drug/prescription site.

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists sent a brief to the Supreme Court explaining says that the hormone in Plan B has been widely studied and "current evidence shows that it works by preventing or disrupting ovulation, but is not effective after ovulation."

In a brief to the Supreme Court last October,

http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-co...YSICIANS-FOR-REPRODUCTIVE-HEALTH-et-al....pdf



the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and 10 other health professional associations make that assertion.


The label hasn't been updated "since the product was originally approved in 1999," the brief says, "and it does not reflect the most current research."

The brief further says that the hormone in Plan B has been widely studied and "current evidence shows that[ it works by preventing or disrupting ovulation, but is not effective after ovulation."

Teva Pharmaceuticals, Plan B's manufacturer, is well aware of the problem with its label.


Research: Morning-after pill doesn't harm fertilized egg - Local News - lancasteronline.com

from this article
Contraceptive efficacy of emergency contraception with levonorgestrel given before before or after ovulation.
BACKGROUND:
We aimed to evaluate whether emergency contraception with levonorgestrel (LNG-EC) administered after ovulation is equally effective to LNG-EC administered before ovulation.

CONCLUSION:
We conclude that LNG-EC prevents pregnancy only when taken before fertilization of the ovum has occurred.


Contraceptive efficacy of emergency contracept... [Contraception. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

From TIME.com
Viewpoint: Plan B Is Very Misunderstood
Emergency contraception is not "the abortion pill." Like other forms of birth control, it prevents fertilization in the first place

Cecile Richards: Plan B Emergency Contraception Is Misunderstood | TIME.com
 
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The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists sent a brief to the Supreme Court explaining says that the hormone in Plan B has been widely studied and "current evidence shows that it works by preventing or disrupting ovulation, but is not effective after ovulation."




Research: Morning-after pill doesn't harm fertilized egg - Local News - lancasteronline.com

from this article


Contraceptive efficacy of emergency contracept... [Contraception. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

From TIME.com


Cecile Richards: Plan B Emergency Contraception Is Misunderstood | TIME.com

Plan B (levonorgestrel) Information from Drugs.com

This medication also causes changes in your cervical mucus and uterine lining, making it harder for sperm to reach the uterus and harder for a fertilized egg to attach to the uterus.

your information is not correct i am sorry i have posted at least 3 medical sites that contradict everything you say.

Plan B does not allow a fertilized Egg to attach it will then basically abort itself because of it. i don't think you understand the situation.

you are correct that it will not harm an already attached egg, but it can harm an egg that is not attached yet.

the only one not understanding the conversation is you.
 
do you know all the mutual funds you invest in and every company that they do?
i am sure they are invested in energy, manufacturing and other non-green eco friendly stuff that i am sure you support. so does that mean you are a hypocrite?

Only if I am trying to impose my subjective moral values on others; when I could be merely abstaining from that form of human sexuality in modern times.
 
...Plan B does not allow a fertilized Egg to attach it will then basically abort itself because of it. i don't think you understand the situation.

you are correct that it will not harm an already attached egg, but it can harm an egg that is not attached yet.

the only one not understanding the conversation is you.

You are correct plan B will not harm an attached egg.

That is because Plan B only works before ovulation.
If there is no fertalized egg it cannot prevent implantation and it cannot harm an attached fertilized egg.

from:
http://lancasteronline.com/news/loc...73a-b1d8-11e3-bea1-0017a43b2370.html?mode=jqm

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists sent a brief to the Supreme Court explaining says that the hormone in Plan B has been widely studied and "current evidence shows that
it works by preventing or disrupting ovulation, but is not effective after ovulation."


Fertilization only occurs after ovulation.
 
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Purchasing a beer (or big gulp) is not an "investment" in the companies stock, it's a purchase. Just because a company pays me for work and I buy a beer on my way home that does not mean that the company bought the beer.

No, if my employer matches a percentage of my earnings as part of my 401(k) and that income is mine. I then invest it in the funds I've selected with the Fund Manager. Once deposited into my check to be routed to my investment account it is no longer the organizations money, it's mine. So if they make a match and I invest in funds that have 7-11 as part of the portfolio then that is my money not the companies.



>>>>

Using similar logic, the money spent by it's employees on contraceptives, etc is not HL's money either. It is the employees money that they received as compensation for their labor, just like the money that goes into the employees 401K. So even if the insurance covers products that HL objects to, it is not an example of HL being forced to spend its' money on those products.

Or to paraphrase what you just said "Just because a company pays me for work and I buy an abortion on my way home that does not mean that the company bought the abortion."
 
Only if I am trying to impose my subjective moral values on others; when I could be merely abstaining from that form of human sexuality in modern times.

no we are not talking about other people. if you do not support certain industries yet still invest in them through a mutual fund does that make you a hypocrit? simple yes or no question.

it has nothing to do with someone else.

hobby lobby isn't investing anything. they have a wide variety of funds that their employee's can invest in. medical companies make an array of drugs.
again they don't oppose all forms of birth control just 4.

nothing hypocritical about this. The mutual funds are controled by the fund manager. while the company gets a list of the fund companies i doubt they do that much research into
what they make. it is the employee's that invest into the funds. not the company itself.

you have to use a lot of twisted screwed up logic in order to say that HL is investing in these companies because they aren't. their employee's are investing into mutual funds that happen to have these companies in the fund.
 
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