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Thread: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Employees have rights, too. The employees are paying for their health insurance with their labor just as if it were wages.
    the company offers a plan, ...you either take what is offered, , or you turn it down and find your own plan, you dont get to demand what the plan has.

    example ..using another plan.

    your employer offers a 401k, and the plan does not offer a particular fund in its plan, do you believe you can demand the company, put a fund you want into the plan, just because you contributing to your own 401k.

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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the company offers a plan, ...you either take what is offered, , or you turn it down and find your own plan, you dont get to demand what the plan has.

    example ..using another plan.

    your employer offers a 401k, and the plan does not offer a particular fund in its plan, do you believe you can demand the company, put a fund you want into the plan, just because you contributing to your own 401k.
    Likewise, the private insurance companies offers plans...and companies like HL don't get to chose what's in the plans, either. They aren't paying for it...their employees are in lieu of higher wages.


    But, if the company doesn't want to provide insurance, they can always pay the fine and let their employees chose insurance off the exchange.

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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Likewise, the insurance company offers plans...and companies like HL don't get to chose what's in the plans, either. They aren't paying for it...their employees are as compensation in lieu of higher wages.


    But, if the company doesn't want to provide insurance, they can always pay the fine and let their employees chose insurance off the exchange.
    if the insurance company offers a plan, and it has something in the plan hobby lobby does not like, ...then they either take the plan, reject the plan, hobby lobby does not get to change the insurance plan,..... just as the employes do not get to change the plan.

    who offers the plan to the employees?...come you can say it.

    since they offer it, ...you take it or leave it.

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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    if the insurance company offers a plan, and it has something in the plan hobby lobby does not like, ...then they either take the plan, reject the plan, hobby lobby does not get to change the insurance plan,..... just as the employes do not get to change the plan.

    who offers the plan to the employees?...come you can say it.

    since they offer it, ...you take it or leave it.
    If I understand the new law correctly, it allows employees to opt out of their employer insurance and buy it off the exchange...but, if they do then the employer has to pay $2000 toward the employees coverage. That would allow both the employer and employee to chose their health care plans, wouldn't it?

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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    I'm very liberal myself but I don't see the double standard here. Their job as an employer is to give their employees the best possible retirement plan. How that money is invested has nothing do with endorsing any product or service and everything to do with creating financial security for the employees who have retirement plans. I can see how somebody would see this as evidence of a double standard. After all, Hobby Lobby's objection to providing contraceptive coverage is a bit of a stretch - that is, it's hard to imagine that their objection is really based on religious principles rather than a general outrage over the new law itself. Since they're so concerned with technically "endorsing" contraception, they shouldn't technically endorse contraception by including these companies in their employee's 401K plan.

    It's all a bit of a stretch. I'll give them a pass on the investment plan and condemn them for their stupid objection to Obamacare. If a politician who condemned guns but owned a mutual fund that included Smith and Wesson, I'd give them a pass too. I'm very tolerant I suppose
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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    If I understand the new law correctly, it allows employees to opt out of their employer insurance and buy it off the exchange...but, if they do then the employer has to pay $2000 toward the employees coverage. That would allow both the employer and employee to chose their health care plans, wouldn't it?
    as i understand the the ruling of the USSC, it states the government can tax people if they do not buy health insurance, i didn't hear a ruling from the court which states, plans have to conform to a standard, since the decision is just that you have insurance, ....not how it is structured.

    for the government to force a person/company to pay for a person's insurance is unconstitutional...........their is no authority by government to force person/company [A], to pay the cost for person [B]....that would create servitude.

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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by darkrecess View Post
    Hello again all,

    Just found this little nugget. If true, it would certainly be a blow to the Hobby Lobby position (their standing with the rest of us, including those who defend them), if not to their case pending in front of the SCOTUS as well. A company that protests being forced to comply with a mandate to provide contraceptive coverage (including IUD's and Plan B Contraceptives) based on their religious objection to those services either has no business investing in these companies, or has no business arguing that their religious beliefs provide them with an exception to avoid providing services they religiously object to while continuing to invest in companies that manufacture those products.

    Thoughts?
    Thoughts? Okay, here goes....

    The destination of the Hobby Lobby's employees' 401k investments aren't being argued in front of the SCOTUS. Nor is "hypocrisy" being argued.

    But I have to give Mother Jones credit for their tenacity. This case has them in a tailspin. Last week the claim was the 4 drugs that HL objects to don't even cause abortions and the FDA labels were wrong.

    Ultimately the SCOTUS judges will have to decide if HL has made a case against the coverage of the 4 contraceptives in question, nothing more, nothing less.

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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    as i understand the the ruling of the USSC, it states the government can tax people if they do not buy health insurance, i didn't hear a ruling from the court which states, plans have to conform to a standard, since the decision is just that you have insurance, ....not how it is structured.
    The court wasn't asked to rule on the structure or the standards in the law. But whats wrong with having standards in health care?

    for the government to force a person/company to pay for a person's insurance is unconstitutional
    Did the court rule that it was unconstitutional?

    their is no authority by government to force person/company [A], to pay the cost for person [B]....that would create servitude.
    Did the court rule that the government didn't have the authority?

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    Hobby Lobby's Hypocrisy: The Company's Retirement Plan Invests in Contraception

    Documents filed with the Department of Labor and dated December 2012—three months after the company's owners filed their lawsuit—show that the Hobby Lobby 401(k) employee retirement plan held more than $73 million in mutual funds with investments in companies that produce emergency contraceptive pills, intrauterine devices, and drugs commonly used in abortions. Hobby Lobby makes large matching contributions to this company-sponsored 401(k).
    Oops, so much for religious beliefs being the reason Hobby Lobby doesn't want to cover contraception. In the end, it's all about yet another group of hypocritical political assholes who want power over women.

    Article is here.
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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Thoughts? Okay, here goes....
    Yay, hopefully someone reasonable will reply to my post, even if they disagree.

    The destination of the Hobby Lobby's employees' 401k investments aren't being argued in front of the SCOTUS. Nor is "hypocrisy" being argued.
    Agreed, although irrelevant. If you look at the original post, I mention only in passing that this might have a negligible impact, if any at all, on the SCOTUS decision. My post is more referenced to the rest of us who aren't sitting on the nation's highest court, and how we spend our dollars when looking to buy arts and crafts. If you want to do so at a store that is religiously based, are you going to do so at Hobby Lobby, knowing that they don't take steps to ensure that their 401(k) dollars don't go to support companies who invest in this type of research and benefit from the sale and use of these products. In my case, I am ardently opposed to guns, and I steer clear of any store that sells guns on its premises, if I can avoid it.

    But I have to give Mother Jones credit for their tenacity. This case has them in a tailspin. Last week the claim was the 4 drugs that HL objects to don't even cause abortions and the FDA labels were wrong.
    double-facepalm.jpgjon stewart hobby lobby.jpg
    Oh, God, another one? Look, let's get this straight. IUD's and Plan-B contraceptives are not abortion causing drugs, as least not under US law and regulations. We can have that debate if you wish, but until you change the law itself, the drugs are considered preventive contraception, not abortion-inducing drugs. If you actually look at how they work, the IUD's never allow the egg to come in contact with sperm (thus conception never happens), and the plan-B contraceptive prevents the fertilized egg from implanting in the placenta, thereby causing a natural miscarriage before the fertilized egg (at this stage, still a 1-cell organism) has a chance to even develop the capacity to hold religious beliefs or experience pain.

    Ultimately the SCOTUS judges will have to decide if HL has made a case against the coverage of the 4 contraceptives in question, nothing more, nothing less.
    Under the law, there is nothing different between those four drugs and other forms of available contraception. Your moral beliefs are yours to define (as are mine), but as a society we adhere to a secular standard that prevents the transmission of religious biases into codified law. And, to be quite honest, that is not even the question pending before the court. The question pending is whether a corporation, as a distinct legal entity from its owners and stockholders, has religious rights, the same as citizens do. I could go for hours talking about how a decision for Hobby Lobby would hamstring boardrooms all across the US (which is quite likely why exactly zero amicus briefs have been filed by US businesses on behalf of Hobby Lobby), but suffice it to say that a decision for Hobby Lobby would pierce the corporate veil, potentially destroying one of the biggest benefits of corporate ownership of a business.

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