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Thread: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Riiiiiight...as long as its someone else payin the bill you are all kinds of generous.
    An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, for fiscal responsibility purposes. You seem to be missing the point.

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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    First of all, I have come full circle on this....I clearly and completely see that it is wrong to place the burden of health care on employers. I see clearly now that single payer -UHC is the way to go. Thank you for validating me on that.

    In terms of men being covered for pregnancy......good grief...every body with health care insurance is insured for things they will never agree to or need. Why single out pregnancy?
    True. Why single out the ONE thing that is so foolishly mandated? There are after all TONS of things. Previously, people could be a bit selective of what they actually...you know...NEEDED.

    I have no doubt that the debacle that is universal healthcare is coming. I stand by my original estimates of 2020. Parasite nation demands it.

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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, for fiscal responsibility purposes. You seem to be missing the point.
    The point is 80% of the country was already being fiscally responsible and in this particular case, Hobby Lobby was already both providing insurance for their employees as well as paying unskilled workers twice the minimum wage. You can bleat on all about fiscal responsibility. I doubt you understand the meaning of the term. To you fiscal responsibility is someone ELSE paying the bills.

  4. #124
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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    congress can create laws, which concern the foregoing powers[article 1 section 8], they cannot make any law they please.
    Foregoing: Just mentioned or stated; preceding. Said, written, or encountered just before; previous


    under the articles of confederation, the states were at war with each other in the area of commerce, state governments were creating trade barriers and trade wars, this was bringing commerce to a stand still.

    under the constitution the federal government was given authority to regulate that commerce among the states, to stop those barriers and wars, it was not given authority to regulate inside a state.

    healthcare is not a power of government.... neither is education or housing....so you see congress is creating unconstitutional laws.

    history for you......during the constitutional convention it was proposed that the federal government be involved in education...it was rejected by the convention...so how can it be a federal power?
    There wasn't a demand for an educated workforce when the framers wrote the constitution. The industrial revolution changed all that and demanded the government impose mandatory education so the people could get a job in industry. Helping society adapt to new technology is considered providing for the general welfare.

    involuntary servitude...would be if government forced you to provide a good or a service to another person or entity.........goverment is using the tax clause for healthcare, saying its you dont buy it ...its a tax!
    I don't see anyone using violent force on you...at least your typing fingers still seem to work. Taxation and spending is the most important power that congress has.



    James Madison, Federalist, no. 42, 283--85
    22 Jan. 1788

    The defect of power in the existing confederacy, to regulate the commerce between its several members, is in the number of those which have been clearly pointed out by experience.

    The change relating to taxation may be regarded as the most important; and yet the present Congress [under articles of confederation]have as complete authority to REQUIRE of the States indefinite supplies of money for the common defense and general welfare, as the future Congress will have to require them of individual citizens; and the latter will be no more bound than the States themselves have been, to pay the quotas respectively taxed on them.????

    and your point is????.....under the Constitution of the founders, there is no income, tax, citizens are taxed based on a voluntary action...trade!
    You seem to be confusing the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution. Under the AoC the states failed to voluntarily pay taxes which helped to convince the founders of the constitution that the federal government needed strong taxation authority.

    “With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

    If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

    ...<snip>.....
    Alexander Hamilton won the day as far as taxation and spending on general welfare goes.....


    "With respect to the meaning of “the general welfare” the pages of The Federalist itself disclose a sharp divergence of views between its two principal authors. Hamilton adopted the literal, broad meaning of the clause;533 Madison contended that the powers of taxation and appropriation of the proposed government should be regarded as merely instrumental to its remaining powers, in other words, as little more than a power of self–support.534 From an early date Congress has acted upon the interpretation espoused by Hamilton..."
    CRS/LII Annotated Constitution Article I


    "... It must embrace a provision for the support of the national civil list; for the payment of the national debts contracted, or that may be contracted; and, in general, for all those matters which will call for disbursements out of the national treasury. The conclusion is, that there must be interwoven, in the frame of the government, a general power of taxation, in one shape or another.

    Money is, with propriety, considered as the vital principle of the body politic; as that which sustains its life and motion, and enables it to perform its most essential functions. A complete power, therefore, to procure a regular and adequate supply of it, as far as the resources of the community will permit, may be regarded as an indispensable ingredient in every constitution. From a deficiency in this particular, one of two evils must ensue; either the people must be subjected to continual plunder, as a substitute for a more eligible mode of supplying the public wants, or the government must sink into a fatal atrophy, and, in a short course of time, perish...."
    https://timpanogos.wordpress.com/201...federalist-30/


    “The public necessities must be satisfied; this can only be done by contributions of the whole society. “ - Alexander Hamilton, The Continentalist VI

  5. #125
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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Sotomayor has offered her OPINION. It is not a legal opinion, it is a personal opinion. Her verbiage is clear and present throughlut her questions and it has absolutely zero to do with legal precedent. The Supreme Court has not ruled. When it does, there will be established caselaw and it will be the rule of the land. Until then, it is mere opinion. Sotomayor is driven by ideology, no different than you or I.
    And she's still 100x more qualified to interpret the law than you.


    Hobby Lobby has a third choice...fight being forced to pay for an abortion drug.
    It's not an abortion drug anymore than Rogaine is. Yet HL doesn't seem to object to Rogaine or a myriad of other drugs whose labels clearly warn against pregnant women using them. Btw, HL sells clothes hangers in their store and we all know what those can be used for.

    They are choosing that option. When they lose, and they probably will...they will likely choose to kill their insurance program for all of their employees. That scenario you are celebrating is ****ing stupid. If you cant seer that...well...
    Exaggerate much?

  6. #126
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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    ....

    This was a huge stretch they ruled it constitutional under tax law even though the obama administration maintained it wasn't a tax but a penalty. a penalty would have been unconstitutional, but roberts screwed up and said it was a tax. that was the only way this bill or at least the mandate passed.
    ....
    Actually it was republicans that were on the committee who insisted that the final draft of health care act replace the word penalty with the word tax all through the act.

    They thought the word tax was less palatable but the word tax backfired on the republicans when the act was reviewed by the Supreme Court.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Actually it was republicans that were on the committee who insisted that the final draft of health care act replace the word penalty with the word tax all through the act.

    They thought the word tax was less palatable but the word tax backfired on the republicans when the act was reviewed by the Supreme Court.
    proof or evidence?

  8. #128
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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    And she's still 100x more qualified to interpret the law than you.


    It's not an abortion drug anymore than Rogaine is. Yet HL doesn't seem to object to Rogaine or a myriad of other drugs whose labels clearly warn against pregnant women using them. Btw, HL sells clothes hangers in their store and we all know what those can be used for.

    Exaggerate much?
    No doubt...at LEAST 100x. Probably a lot more. Thats why its so tragic when Supreme Court justices and federal judge trade jurisprudence for opinion and ideology.

    And no...I'm not exaggerating at all, though it is rather comical for you to say "exaggerate much" after your idiotic comment about coat hangers.

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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    Please provide a link to the FDA which show such a warning. When verifying this statement all I could find was:

    5.2
    Existing Pregnancy Plan B One-Step is not effective in terminating an existing pregnancy.

    http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsa.../021998lbl.pdf


    From the FDA.



    >>>>
    You are correct.

    Plan B does cause an abortion nor does it keep a fertilized from implanting.

    Actually progesterone is needed for implantation and for the zygote to stay implanted which is why GYNs prescribe extra progesterone for patients who are at high risk for miscarriages and why extra progesterone is given to women who have IVF treatments to become pregnant.

    And what affect does this hormone have on progesterone levels?

    Plan b only contains progesterone. Therefore if an egg were already fertilized when plan b was taken plan b would help with implantation and would aide in the zygote staying implanted which is why plan b only works when the egg has not yet been fertilized.

    Plan B does not keep a fertilized egg from implanting.

    from:



    Catholic journal says Plan B does not cause abortions


    Plan B, the nation’s most widely used emergency contraceptive, works only as a contraceptive and does not cause abortions, according to an article in the January-February issue of Health Progress, the official journal of the Catholic Health Association.

    < SNIP>

    Reznik wrote that since it takes about a week from an egg’s fertilization to its implantation, the scientific evidence that Plan B treatment is completely ineffective after five days is overwhelming: It works only by preventing fertilization, not by preventing implantation.

    Otherwise, she said, the drug would also be found effective from five to 12 days after coitus,
    because that is the time frame between the last chance for a sperm to fertilize an egg and the time a fertilized egg would implant. The declining effectiveness of Plan B between 48 and 120 hours after coitus adds to the argument that preventing a fertilized egg from being implanted is not one of its effects, she said.
    Catholic journal says Plan B does not cause abortions | National Catholic Reporter
    Catholic journal says Plan B does not cause abortions | National Catholic Reporter

    So what's the point of taking it the "morning after"?
    Here is an animated science video that explains in simple terms how Plan B works and what the point is in taking it the "morning after".

    The Science of 'Plan B' - Emergency Contraception - YouTube
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

  10. #130
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    Re: Hobby Lobby invests in companies that makes IUD's/Plan-B Contraceptives

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I posted what is on the FDA label, and the definition of contraindication.

    The contraindication warning is so that women who are pregnant know the pill may cause a formed fetus to abort.

    ....
    Wrong, the contraindication does not indicate the pill may cause a formed fetus to abort.... You are mistaken.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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