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Thread: Retiring NSA chief doesn't understand why people hate the NSA

  1. #131
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    Re: Retiring NSA chief doesn't understand why people hate the NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I said it doesn't mention it. And it doesn't. What were you saying? That I never told you what me degree was in? Is that what you were saying?
    "what me degree was in" obviously not English.

    Anyway, the Bill of Rights most certainly does reserve for the People and States rights and powers not mentioned directly in the Bill of Rights; so it seems you're wrong.

    So maybe when you go back for another degree, you can take some English and American History courses to round out that "education" of yours.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  2. #132
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    Re: Retiring NSA chief doesn't understand why people hate the NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    "what me degree was in" obviously not English.
    Is that what I have to do to get you to acknowledge your colossal **** up? lol

    Anyway, the Bill of Rights most certainly does reserve for the People and States rights and powers not mentioned directly in the Bill of Rights;
    Okay? What rights are those? Any right anyone wants?

    so it seems you're wrong.
    Really? When I said the word "privacy" was never mentioned in the Bill of Rights I was wrong? Was I? Hmmm.

    So maybe when you go back for another degree, you can take some English and American History courses to round out that "education" of yours.
    Yeah, you don't take any of those in International Relations. loool

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  3. #133
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    Re: Retiring NSA chief doesn't understand why people hate the NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Is that what I have to do to get you to acknowledge your colossal **** up? lol



    Okay? What rights are those? Any right anyone wants?



    Really? When I said the word "privacy" was never mentioned in the Bill of Rights I was wrong? Was I? Hmmm.



    Yeah, you don't take any of those in International Relations. loool

    Learn to Crtl+F
    "Colossal "**** up"? Not so much. I think mixing up pronouns and adjectives is a bit more embarrassing.

    But yes, it does reserve all rights, even those that one may desire. Privacy is, in fact, the basis of the 4th Amendment and furthermore, we've reserved rights not enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Additionally, as per the 10th, the Federal government only has powers which it was specifically granted in the Constitution, and that not barred to the States are reserved by the States and the People.

    Maybe if I mix up some pronouns and adjectives, you'll understand better. However, I did take English in University, so it's not really a skill I possess. Kudos to you.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #134
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    Re: Retiring NSA chief doesn't understand why people hate the NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I am deliberately being facetious. I think it's ridiculous that someone can say the Bill of Rights protects something that it doesn't even mention, just because they think it should. That's what that boils down to.
    It's not "just because they think it should." The 9th Amendment adequately covers the right to privacy, and one of the primary concerns of the Founders is that without a catch-all amendment the government would just proclaim that rights not specifically listed do not exist. There is substantial legal and historical evidence to suggest that rights (such as privacy) not directly mentioned in the Bill of Rights can still be assumed to fall under its protection.

    But, as I said, that's neither here nor there and is in fact peripheral to the discussion because of what we agreed upon regarding absolute rights.
    I beg to differ; the authority of the federal government to do this and whether or not it violates the democratic principles upon which our government is founded are both essential to any discussion about potential violations of civil liberties.

    My argument is that NSA collection on US persons doesn't entirely disregard this "right to privacy" that remains unmentioned in the Bill of Rights. It's storage of metadata, and that metadata can't even be looked at without a FISA warrant.
    When I send an email, or make a Word document, or do a Google search, my understanding is that such communication is solely between me and whatever parties are directly involved. Information that I don't want other parties to see is suddenly being collected without my knowledge or consent. Again, I don't think this is something directly out of 1984, but it still violates privacy.

    If it's warranted, though, that changes things a little.
    I think that as technology expands, the forces in the world that have internal monopolies on the authorized use of force will scramble to keep up with it. That's all this is. There's no going to be some revolutionary method of communication that suddenly arises that the whole population can use that governments are just going to ignore. If they did, those governments would end up falling. And nothing would replace them. Now, there are some people in the world that think general anarchism is good, but I'm not one of them, so I understand that governments are a necessary part of civilization.
    Come on, it's not as if it's NSA spying or the collapse of state society as we know it.
    Last edited by MadLib; 04-03-14 at 09:01 PM.
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  5. #135
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    Re: Retiring NSA chief doesn't understand why people hate the NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    It's not "just because they think it should." The 9th Amendment adequately covers the right to privacy, and one of the primary concerns of the Founders is that without a catch-all amendment the government would just proclaim that rights not specifically listed do not exist. There is substantial legal and historical evidence to suggest that rights (such as privacy) not directly mentioned in the Bill of Rights can still be assumed to fall under its protection.


    I beg to differ; the authority of the federal government to do this and whether or not it violates the democratic principles upon which our government is founded are both essential to any discussion about potential violations of civil liberties.


    When I send an email, or make a Word document, or do a Google search, my understanding is that such communication is solely between me and whatever parties are directly involved. Information that I don't want other parties to see is suddenly being collected without my knowledge or consent. Again, I don't think this is something directly out of 1984, but it still violates privacy.

    If it's warranted, though, that changes things a little.


    Come on, it's not as if it's NSA spying or the collapse of state society as we know it.
    Not 100% sure certain folk understand what "reserved by the States and the People" really means.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #136
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    Re: Retiring NSA chief doesn't understand why people hate the NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not 100% sure certain folk understand what "reserved by the States and the People" really means.
    Or, for that matter, "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated."
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

  7. #137
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    Re: Retiring NSA chief doesn't understand why people hate the NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Or, for that matter, "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated."
    Definitely, it's clear if you actually read it. But that's for people versed in the art of English I suppose.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #138
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    Re: Retiring NSA chief doesn't understand why people hate the NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    "Colossal "**** up"? Not so much. I think mixing up pronouns and adjectives is a bit more embarrassing.
    That's funny. Odd you ran away from it for so long, then. Did I, in fact, tell you what my major was?

    But yes, it does reserve all rights, even those that one may desire. Privacy is, in fact, the basis of the 4th Amendment and furthermore, we've reserved rights not enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Additionally, as per the 10th, the Federal government only has powers which it was specifically granted in the Constitution, and that not barred to the States are reserved by the States and the People.
    So does it say the word privacy in it? Or are you reading into it?

    Maybe if I mix up some pronouns and adjectives, you'll understand better. However, I did take English in University, so it's not really a skill I possess. Kudos to you.
    Ahhh, so we're learning what we're good at what we're not. Like how you don't know much about national defense or intelligence!
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  9. #139
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    Re: Retiring NSA chief doesn't understand why people hate the NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    That's funny. Odd you ran away from it for so long, then. Did I, in fact, tell you what my major was?
    Yes, and I congratulated you on the one instance you actually backed up your claim. In case you missed it, kudos. Those kudos are for you because you proved a point that one time. Good job

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    So does it say the word privacy in it? Or are you reading into it?
    It says that not numerated in the Bill of Rights and not prohibited to the States is reserved by the States and the People. It doesn't need to say "privacy". Privacy rights are also derived from the 4th amendment that protects persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures. It's clear to anyone who has successfully completed rudimentary English.



    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Ahhh, so we're learning what we're good at what we're not. Like how you don't know much about national defense or intelligence!
    Or like how you have no idea what the Bill of Rights says.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #140
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    Re: Retiring NSA chief doesn't understand why people hate the NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    It's not "just because they think it should." The 9th Amendment adequately covers the right to privacy, and one of the primary concerns of the Founders is that without a catch-all amendment the government would just proclaim that rights not specifically listed do not exist. There is substantial legal and historical evidence to suggest that rights (such as privacy) not directly mentioned in the Bill of Rights can still be assumed to fall under its protection.
    I don't think we can "assume" anything does. If they wanted to say it, they could've. But they didn't. The 9th Amendment isn't something where you can just say "Oh, I think it should be a right and oh! Hey, look! The 9th Amendment says other rights are covered so it looks like the Constitution is on my side!" That's incredibly intellectually dishonest.

    I beg to differ; the authority of the federal government to do this and whether or not it violates the democratic principles upon which our government is founded are both essential to any discussion about potential violations of civil liberties.
    We agree that no rights are absolute, so whether privacy was mentioned in the Constitution really wouldn't matter either way. I'm just pointing out that no, it is not mentioned, and that's factually airtight. It's not mentioned.

    When I send an email, or make a Word document, or do a Google search, my understanding is that such communication is solely between me and whatever parties are directly involved. Information that I don't want other parties to see is suddenly being collected without my knowledge or consent. Again, I don't think this is something directly out of 1984, but it still violates privacy.
    First, it's not just between you and the recipient of the email: read the fine print of your email provider. Regardless, yelling fire in a crowded theater violates free speech. Yet we find it allowable.

    If it's warranted, though, that changes things a little.
    Collection of metadata without analysis (viewing) is what this is all about. Analysis requires a warrant.

    Come on, it's not as if it's NSA spying or the collapse of state society as we know it.
    The point is that governments are always going to be seeking to have power of technology. Is that bad? What happens when individuals have the power of technology over governments? Can you imagine?
    Last edited by OldWorldOrder; 04-03-14 at 09:22 PM.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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