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Thread: Fischer: God ‘designed’ women to be secretaries so it’s OK to discriminate on gender

  1. #31
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    Re: Religious Objection to Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyO View Post
    In a free country, people should be allowed to live their lives as they see fit.
    Including in business.

    Should a Jewish deli store owner be compelled to sell non-Kosher food? Should a Moslem store owner be compelled to sell liquor?
    If such is the law of the land in the nation where they live, YES.

    Now that your head has finished exploding, remember that it is neither Jewish nor Muslim (or any other significant religion's) belief that one is required to start a business. Since such is not part of their religion, then they are making a SECULAR CHOICE...and secular choices fall under the purview not of religion, but of the laws of the nation in which they live.

    Now, do you hold yourself to be 'Christian'? If so, remember that Jesus never, ever implied that one should even resist the laws of the nation. In fact, He said quite the opposite: "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's". Not only that, but when Peter tried to fight for Him when He was being arrested by the Romans, what did Jesus do? He told Peter to put down his sword, and He submitted to government authority as an innocent Man...even unto His death.

    But what do you do if your beliefs fly in the face of national law? Got an answer for that one, too. I am a strong Christian, and I belong to the Church of Christ - in Tagalog, "Iglesia ni Cristo". We have many locales in Muslim countries where such are either strictly forbidden or restricted to certain areas (just as Jews were once relegated to ghettos, originally by the Catholic church). If the Muslims find our chapels - which are hidden and outside those restricted areas (I've been to one more than once) - then those who are there will be arrested and the property confiscated and possibly razed. But we would submit to that arrest, because that's just what Jesus did.

    And that's the great error of mainstream "Christianity" in America - they want to fight the government, force it to their own beliefs...but that's not what Jesus wanted by His word or His example.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  2. #32
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    Re: Religious Objection to Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    They are not selling the insurance coverage.
    They are seeking an exemption based on religious grounds where none exist.
    They were already covering the very same things in their insurance.
    Now they are attempting to deny their employees something that a law mandates to cover.
    there's something else people seem to be turning upside down and that is the fact that the ACA mandates to insurance companies the minimum requirements for any policy sold.... not what specific coverage employers must provide. Basically this whole situation can be avoided by the SC ruling in favor of HL but not allowing insurance companies to sell policies that don't meet the minimum requirements. In other words HL would have every right to go out and shop for a policy that essentially won't exist thus throwing them into the position of either just providing the care they object to or not providing insurance and pay the mandated fine.

  3. #33
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    Re: Religious Objection to Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray410 View Post
    Nor should the first person's lack of religion ever govern someone else's life.


    Right?
    I bet that sounded better in your head.

    1. Person 1 believes A
    2. Person 2 believes B
    3. Person 3 believes neither A or B
    4. If order to keep the above from fighting over their beliefs (see Europe pre-USA) we just dont go there in the Government.

    So when I talk to a person that believes A and I disagree then I avoid talking about A and I also dont force that person to believe whatever I believe.

    I am sure at this point you will be saying but, but, atheists! Atheism isnt secularist government. Clearly a secular government is made up of people of all beliefs no matter what anyone tries to claim otherwise. The point of secular government is to make sure that no one is favored because of their beliefs. Because what if some strange religion gained the majority of seats in the government.

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    Re: Religious Objection to Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    No they do not. People have religion not corporations.
    The owners have religious objections

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    Re: Religious Objection to Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    If such is the law of the land in the nation where they live, YES.

    Now that your head has finished exploding, remember that it is neither Jewish nor Muslim (or any other significant religion's) belief that one is required to start a business. Since such is not part of their religion, then they are making a SECULAR CHOICE...and secular choices fall under the purview not of religion, but of the laws of the nation in which they live.

    Now, do you hold yourself to be 'Christian'? If so, remember that Jesus never, ever implied that one should even resist the laws of the nation. In fact, He said quite the opposite: "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's". Not only that, but when Peter tried to fight for Him when He was being arrested by the Romans, what did Jesus do? He told Peter to put down his sword, and He submitted to government authority as an innocent Man...even unto His death.

    But what do you do if your beliefs fly in the face of national law? Got an answer for that one, too. I am a strong Christian, and I belong to the Church of Christ - in Tagalog, "Iglesia ni Cristo". We have many locales in Muslim countries where such are either strictly forbidden or restricted to certain areas (just as Jews were once relegated to ghettos, originally by the Catholic church). If the Muslims find our chapels - which are hidden and outside those restricted areas (I've been to one more than once) - then those who are there will be arrested and the property confiscated and possibly razed. But we would submit to that arrest, because that's just what Jesus did.

    And that's the great error of mainstream "Christianity" in America - they want to fight the government, force it to their own beliefs...but that's not what Jesus wanted by His word or His example.
    In the USA there is free "exercise of religion." I am quite certain the folks in your church would be happier if their country had such guarantees and did not have to pray in secret, and live their Christian lives in secret.
    Its why people came, at least some people, to America. To escape all that religious nonsense- to live their lives as they wish.
    That is what Hobby Lobby is asking for-- that their rights under the law of the nation which guarantees their free exercise of religion, is respected.

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    Re: Religious Objection to Minimum Wage

    Religious freedom is correctly limited to behavior that does not harm others. That is why the courts have allowed some religions to use peyote but no religion is allowed to do human sacrifices. Even parental rights are limited, with parents prosecuted for failing to give their children medical treatment despite claims of a religious belief that medicine should not be used. Allowing a business to limit the health coverage their employees receive for religious reasons is not acceptable because it does harm to the employes. If the employees were involved with religious duties, ie. monks, priests, ministers, nuns etc., then adhering to the religious beliefs is essential to their jobs and it would be acceptable to require them to follow the religion's rules. For other types of employees, the owners should not have a right to control their off-work behavior or access to health care.

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    Re: Religious Objection to Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Religious freedom is correctly limited to behavior that does not harm others. That is why the courts have allowed some religions to use peyote but no religion is allowed to do human sacrifices. Even parental rights are limited, with parents prosecuted for failing to give their children medical treatment despite claims of a religious belief that medicine should not be used. Allowing a business to limit the health coverage their employees receive for religious reasons is not acceptable because it does harm to the employes. If the employees were involved with religious duties, ie. monks, priests, ministers, nuns etc., then adhering to the religious beliefs is essential to their jobs and it would be acceptable to require them to follow the religion's rules. For other types of employees, the owners should not have a right to control their off-work behavior or access to health care.
    Nobody is controlling somebody else's "off-work behavior." Nor is "access to health care" being denied.

    What is occurring is that Hobby Lobby is being told they cannot freely "exercise" their religion.

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    Re: Religious Objection to Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyO View Post
    The owners have religious objections
    Good for them, I am sure they will include that in their prayers, but the corporations must comply with the law.

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    Re: Religious Objection to Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyO View Post
    That is what Hobby Lobby is asking for-- that their rights under the law of the nation which guarantees their free exercise of religion, is respected.
    HL has to comply with a law, the owners are free to pray as they please.

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    Re: Religious Objection to Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyO View Post
    Nobody is controlling somebody else's "off-work behavior." Nor is "access to health care" being denied.

    What is occurring is that Hobby Lobby is being told they cannot freely "exercise" their religion.
    HL is a corporation and as such has no religion.

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