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Thread: Ukraine far right Svoboda attack TV chief and force to resign

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    Re: Ukraine far right Svoboda attack TV chief and force to resign

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Mubarak and Gaddafi were elected as well, were you sorry to see them go?
    Those were not real democratic elections. The Ukraine elections might not have been perfect (but then again, where is it perfect) but they were no where near as undemocratic as the elections of Gadaffi or Mubarak.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    This is ludicrous. The "Russian Speaking Ukrainians" associate with a Russian thug who poisons reporters, jails musicians, invades his neighbors in the name of ethnic protection, and kills Ukrainian soldiers. How about you take a half second to actually look at this rationally? How about you look at the history of Russian rule over Ukraine and open your eyes to who really has reason for concern. The only reason there is a Russian majority in Eastern Ukraine is because the Soviets murdered the Ukrainians there.

    The Russian Speaking Eastern Ukraine is just lucky that the Western Ukrainians are actually civilized and haven't paralleled the PLO in militant demands for their land back. The most the Western regions can muster in that direction is a few asshats who took over a TV station.
    The Russian speaking majority on the Crimea chooses to belong to Russia rather than a country it has little or no feeling/connection with. This area has no history with the Ukraine and has for a long time not wanted to be part of the Ukraine. They are fighting for their freedom, just like other people have done.

    I know the history of the USSR but the USSR is dead and buried. Stalin is dead and gone and we are also not talking about the Eastern Ukraine but the Crimea.
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    Re: Ukraine far right Svoboda attack TV chief and force to resign

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    From what I've read here, it was mostly posters on the right who were sorry to see them go.



    The Russians in Ukraine were concerned about these "few asshats" getting into government and cleansing them from Ukraine. Which is pretty close to what you're advocating. The Soviets mostly murdered anybody regardless of ethnicity, and there are pockets of Russians all over the former USSR. My daughter's old gymnastics coach was a Russian from Kazakhstan (who's husband coached the USSR national team for a time). Their daughter in law, who does a lot of the business end there is a Russian from Ukraine. I almost wish I could hear her thoughts about this.
    Russia has changed since the collapse of the USSR. People have a lot more freedom now, at least more than they are used to. However, Ukraine is still living in the past and in constant state of flux from having been a tug of war border state between Europe and Russia for over a hundred years. Ukraine means border. Where we in the US and now even Russia try to put our tainted history behind us...Ukraine is still living in theirs.

    At any rate, Crimea was never really populated by Ukrainians. Tatars, yes, and after them mostly Russians. It was only part of Ukraine because of Kruschev, and at the time transferring it to the Ukrainian SSR wasn't a big deal because everybody assumed that the USSR was permanent.
    And too, when USSR collapsed everything happened so fast that many countries didn't know what to do...some wanted independence and some didn't and some didn't know what they wanted. It was under the chaos and uncertainty of the Soviet break up that Crimea ended up being attached to Ukraine and they shouldn't have been.
    Last edited by Moot; 03-20-14 at 06:44 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine far right Svoboda attack TV chief and force to resign

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Russia has changed since the collapse of the USSR. People have a lot more freedom now, at least more than they are used to. However, Ukraine is still living in the past and in constant state of flux from having been a tug of war border state between Europe and Russia for over a hundred years. Ukraine means border. Where we in the US and now even Russia try to put our tainted history behind us...Ukraine is still living in theirs.

    And too, when USSR collapsed everything happened so fast that many countries didn't know what to do...some wanted independence and some didn't and some didn't know what they wanted. It was under the chaos and uncertainty of the Soviet break up that Crimea ended up being attached to Ukraine and they shouldn't have been.
    Some things have changed, some haven't. Depends on where in Russia you are.

    But check your timeline. Crimea became part of Ukraine long before the end of the USSR. When the USSR collapsed, nobody really thought about what the borders should have looked like. All the republics just became independent as they were. It was probably too chaotic to sit and negotiate, and Yeltsin never would have thought to ask for Crimea. But Crimea, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh...all of these things have been simmering for at least the last 25 years.


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    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
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    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Ukraine far right Svoboda attack TV chief and force to resign

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    I don't think you have a complete understanding on what was happening there.
    Yanukovych, under his watch, had over 37bil dollars "misplaced", by which I mean stolen, by him and his cronies. The total economy of Ukraine is around 170-180bil dollars. Ok? And then, he accepted a 15bil $ bribe from Russia to turn down the treaty for trade with the EU. That's not him going to Russia, that's him being bought by Russia and selling out his country.

    Secondly, he got elected due to massive fraud and there are numerous other inconsistencies. If such an election, as the one in 2010, would happen in any western country, you'd be outraged. It'll be unacceptable as a democratic standard. So you saying he was "elected democraticaly" is a slap in the face to anything that is fair and democratic elections because if it had happened in your country, you'd be pulling out your pitchfork.

    I'm sorry, I don't see how that is something desirable in an elected representative. So of course the people rioted against that and he got deposed.
    The first thing the interim govt did is set elections in may. that's not the action of a corrupt administration.

    Svoboda is a ukrainian nationalist group and is now part of the administration, yes, but they're a very minor partner. This make-shift alliance of convenience for the interim govt has to hold until election day in Ukraine or else the country will be plunged into chaos again. It's not an optimum scenario but the alternative is to put power back in the hands of the people who supported Yanukovych, of the former ruling regime. Maybe have a few dozen more ukrainian killed by snipers in the streets.

    This is the real world. Political crises have consequences especially in less developed nations that are trying to escape the scars of communism.

    If you don't understand that world, as clearly many don't, don't be a wise-ass. I think this isn't the first time I'm telling you about how the 2010 election went down in Ukraine and why stating the things you do is bollocks. And this isn't me making **** up, it's what actually happened. Look it up, ukraine 2010 elections.
    Yes Rainman, you're right in all those points.

    But consider the fact that the US has lost a lot of it's morale.
    Trying to bring the democracy with far right gangs, trying to overthrow a dictator with Al-Qaeda, with drones etc etc. made the US look so different of what it was used to be. And not only in the eyes of the skeptics but even among their friends.
    Germany does not see US as it used to be.
    UK does not take anymore risks for US.

    We were used to see the US as the police of the world and we were all happy with that. During last 20 years, all the world didn't care a lot which country US bombed or attacked. It was fine for everyone.
    I notice this even in my country. We used to be very very closed with US.
    Lately, our relationships are so cold.
    You know why?
    We are tired of US Ambassadors who've been here. We are tired of those puppies drawing red lines to our governments, we are tired on interfering in our internal business.
    US no longer see their allies as an ally.
    You can't find me a good example of a healthy relationship of US with their allies or ex-allies lately, during Obama's administration.
    We as simple people have seen so tiny parts of US spying issue with Germany. But who knows what else Russia has transmitted to US's allies.
    If US has lost anything of it's morale, it came by itself not by any other part of the world or Snowden.

    It is not so easy to judge Russia about Crimea now.
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    Re: Ukraine far right Svoboda attack TV chief and force to resign

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    I'm not reading past the first paragraph. Bush lost hells more than that in Iraq and Afghanistan corruption, we didn't oust Bush or either of our stooges in those countries. So don't try to turn this into some righteous bunch of bull crap.

    Sorry, but the parliament did not oust Yanukovych, so regardless of any fraud or otherwise, his overthrow was illegitimate.
    Of course you didn't read once you realized you didn't like what it said.

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    Re: Ukraine far right Svoboda attack TV chief and force to resign

    Quote Originally Posted by Coin View Post
    Yes Rainman, you're right in all those points.

    But consider the fact that the US has lost a lot of it's morale.
    Trying to bring the democracy with far right gangs, trying to overthrow a dictator with Al-Qaeda, with drones etc etc. made the US look so different of what it was used to be. And not only in the eyes of the skeptics but even among their friends.
    Germany does not see US as it used to be.
    UK does not take anymore risks for US.

    We were used to see the US as the police of the world and we were all happy with that. During last 20 years, all the world didn't care a lot which country US bombed or attacked. It was fine for everyone.
    I notice this even in my country. We used to be very very closed with US.
    Lately, our relationships are so cold.
    You know why?
    We are tired of US Ambassadors who've been here. We are tired of those puppies drawing red lines to our governments, we are tired on interfering in our internal business.
    US no longer see their allies as an ally.
    You can't find me a good example of a healthy relationship of US with their allies or ex-allies lately, during Obama's administration.
    We as simple people have seen so tiny parts of US spying issue with Germany. But who knows what else Russia has transmitted to US's allies.
    If US has lost anything of it's morale, it came by itself not by any other part of the world or Snowden.

    It is not so easy to judge Russia about Crimea now.
    Since Germany has never backed up the USA on anything, why the hell should we give a **** what Germany thinks? Germany's history is of being a huge pain the ass to the USA.

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    Re: Ukraine far right Svoboda attack TV chief and force to resign

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Some things have changed, some haven't. Depends on where in Russia you are.

    But check your timeline. Crimea became part of Ukraine long before the end of the USSR. When the USSR collapsed, nobody really thought about what the borders should have looked like. All the republics just became independent as they were. It was probably too chaotic to sit and negotiate, and Yeltsin never would have thought to ask for Crimea. But Crimea, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh...all of these things have been simmering for at least the last 25 years.
    Time for Russia to kill more non-white Russians. It's a problem too, because so far Russia doesn't succeed in killing ALL of them, and those not killed act pissy creating "chaos" by virtue of existing. Maybe this time Russia will get genocide and subjugation right and finish the job. An all-white world is a perfect world, correct? Send all the others somewhere else or kill them, whichever.

    So far, Putin said that this time against non-white Russians in Crimea he is only going to send those people (who actually are the indigenous people) elsewhere.

    Time for some more Tartar Muslim ass-kicking!!!

    Worked for Hitler and Germany. For all practical purposes Jews were eradicated from Western Europe permanently. So those of you praising Putin's saving "ethnic Russians" might be right that success is potentially possible.

    There is a logic to his reasoning. If everyone of African-American dissent was sent elsewhere, then there would be no black-white problem in the USA.

    Personally, I don't agree with doing that - but it appears many if not most on this forum do.
    Last edited by joko104; 03-21-14 at 12:19 AM.

  8. #38
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    Re: Ukraine far right Svoboda attack TV chief and force to resign

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    It's funny how the corrupt Russian lapdog Ukrainian government kills protesters, Russia invades and has now killed one Ukrainian soldier in the name of protecting "ethnic Russians" and you seem most concerned by the Ukrainian far right group who so far has only invaded a TV station.
    It's my understanding they were also "protecting" banks, pharmacies, technology stores, and other hide value locations by carting off wares for safekeeping in their shared flats and warehouses. *winks*

    In all seriousness, though, I am not really concerned for either side. It is their fight, and the struggle must be theirs. I see it is to our national interest as Americans to not support a regime change that came by force, especially when national elections in Ukraine were only a year away. Then, when one section of the nation of Ukraine decides they do not like that violent overthrow against the democratically elected government, and decide to hold a referendum for the people to vote on, in the desire to not stay with the union of Ukraine, we are asked not to support the outcome. As Americans, we either give full support to liberty, freedom, and the democratic process, or we don't. The United States government can ask us to support more actions that are against what we have always said that we believe in as a nation, but the time has come when more and more Americans simply don't believe in doing it because our leaders have lost our trust when it comes to doing what is best for us.

    Furthermore, I think it is funny that Estonia went to the streets as a nation in a "singing" revolution to drive out the Soviets. Yet, violence was the way the far right and neo-Nazis of the uprising in Ukraine decided to influence the change amongst the demonstrators there. In the end, when it comes to expanding the EU and NATO, are either really what we can count on in the maintenance of liberty around the world? Just some thoughts.
    Last edited by SayMyName; 03-21-14 at 05:19 AM.

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    Re: Ukraine far right Svoboda attack TV chief and force to resign

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    And too, when USSR collapsed everything happened so fast that many countries didn't know what to do...some wanted independence and some didn't and some didn't know what they wanted. It was under the chaos and uncertainty of the Soviet break up that Crimea ended up being attached to Ukraine and they shouldn't have been.
    Factually incorrect.

    Crimea was given as a "gift" to Ukraine on 24 February 1954 by Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev ostensibly to mark the 300th anniversary of Ukraine's merger with the Russian empire.

    The transfer was reported in Pravda...

    "Decree of the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet transferring Crimea Province from the Russian Republic to the Ukraine Republic, taking into account the integral character of the economy, the territorial proximity and the close economic ties between Crimea Province and the Ukraine Republic, and approving the joint presentation of the Presidium of the Russian Republic Supreme Soviet and the Presidium of the Ukraine Republic Supreme Soviet on the transfer of Crimea Province from the Russian Republic to the Ukraine Republic."
    Official reason notwithstanding, no one knows precisely why Khrushchev decided to do this. His wife Nina was Ukrainian and it could have been a form of repayment for the millions of Ukrainians murdered by Stalin during the Holodomor. Almost two years later to the day on 25 February 1956, Khrushchev delivered his "Secret Speech" denunciation of Stalin at the Communist Party's Twentieth Congress in Moscow. What Khrushchev never imagined or anticipated, was the dissolution of the USSR less than forty years later.

    At the time of the dissolution of the USSR, the only items Russia wanted from Ukraine were its nuclear weapons on Ukrainian territory (the Budapest Memorandum) and a lease for the Black Sea Fleet port at Sevastopol (granted). At the time, Crimea was a financial sinkhole that Russia didn't want. As Putin is about to discover, Crimea remains a financial sinkhole and Ukraine is better off economically without it.

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    Re: Ukraine far right Svoboda attack TV chief and force to resign

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    I don't think you have a complete understanding on what was happening there.
    Yanukovych, under his watch, had over 37bil dollars "misplaced", by which I mean stolen, by him and his cronies. The total economy of Ukraine is around 170-180bil dollars. Ok? And then, he accepted a 15bil $ bribe from Russia to turn down the treaty for trade with the EU. That's not him going to Russia, that's him being bought by Russia and selling out his country.
    I don't think you fully understand. $37 billion wasn't misplaced. It's actually all accounted for but people are confused on what "embezzlement" is or isn't.

    1) There is only a clear case of embezzlement of $3 to $5 billion a year. So total of $9 - $15 billion.. That's small beans. The other "money" missing is actually pretty standard things that happens.

    2) Overpaying on competitive bidding for 2012 Euro construction which accounted for $10 billion but was spent to build rail lines, roads and stadiums for the event. This is common place when holding a big event like Euros, World Cup or even the Olympics. Athens lost $14 billion on the 2004 games. London will have to wait until 2021 when the 2012 event will be profitable for them (their bid budget went from $4-5 billion to $16-$20 billion). Ukraine/Poland should have never hosted the Euros but again, this wasn't Yanukvych fault. It was Viktor Yushcheno and Yulia Tymoscheno.

    3) Naftogaz bought natural gas cheaply from Russia.. at something like $300 per 1000 cubic meters when the price on the market was closer $400 at that time. Naftogaz sold it the people basically at cost. But it was losing money and was in fact bankrupt for year under the watchful eye of Yulia Tymoshenko. Hell, last year alone it lost close to $2 billion.

    So "misplacing" money could actually be just as simple as overpaying and running a deficit in a state run business.

    And Yanukovych didn't take $15 billion bribe from Russia to nix the European deal. Rather the European deal was a ****ty deal. EU was offering pennies on the dollar and offering IMF restrictions on Ukraine like it did on Spain, Ireland and Greece who took a bailout. Ukraine would have been force to cut it's national budget by a large amount and all those people on the street would have had to pay at market rate prices for natural gas.

    Russia offered money and cheap natural gas for no strings.

    What deal would you have taken?



    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Secondly, he got elected due to massive fraud and there are numerous other inconsistencies. If such an election, as the one in 2010, would happen in any western country, you'd be outraged. It'll be unacceptable as a democratic standard. So you saying he was "elected democraticaly" is a slap in the face to anything that is fair and democratic elections because if it had happened in your country, you'd be pulling out your pitchfork.
    Eh? Applying American standards to Eastern Europe? That's a fallacy right there. Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe called it a fair election.

    So a flat out lie.. by you again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't see how that is something desirable in an elected representative. So of course the people rioted against that and he got deposed.
    The first thing the interim govt did is set elections in may. that's not the action of a corrupt administration.
    You are just full of lies. The election in May was set by a deal agreed to by Yanukovych on Feb 21st.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Svoboda is a ukrainian nationalist group and is now part of the administration, yes, but they're a very minor partner. This make-shift alliance of convenience for the interim govt has to hold until election day in Ukraine or else the country will be plunged into chaos again. It's not an optimum scenario but the alternative is to put power back in the hands of the people who supported Yanukovych, of the former ruling regime. Maybe have a few dozen more ukrainian killed by snipers in the streets.
    Svoboda is the BNP of Ukraine. But don't down play them as "very minor" partner. They are a huge partner. So much so it was Svoboda who were the main force of the Euro Maidan protests in relation to violence and organizing "resistance". Svoboda is also in a coalition with Fatherland (Batkivshchyna) and UDAR. Those 3 hold half the seats in Ukrainian Parliament. And Arseniy Yatsenyuk comes from Fatherland party. So Right off the bat.. right wingers already own the Parliament in Ukraine.

    Those Snipers that killed people on both sides weren't part of the Government. This is a fact.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    This is the real world. Political crises have consequences especially in less developed nations that are trying to escape the scars of communism.

    If you don't understand that world, as clearly many don't, don't be a wise-ass. I think this isn't the first time I'm telling you about how the 2010 election went down in Ukraine and why stating the things you do is bollocks. And this isn't me making **** up, it's what actually happened. Look it up, ukraine 2010 elections.
    Yep, this is the real world. Where people bull**** and lie to hold to their view point that they have absolutely no ****ing clue about and think they know something. Case in point.. You.. I've proven you to be a liar in this response by facts. Facts you can't accept because it doesn't fit your ill-informed views.

    In the real world all political leaders are bought and paid for even before we vote for them. In the case of Ukraine the interim government official are just as crooked at the previous government and those elected in May will be just a corrupt. The "political prisoner" the EU, US and the "protesters" in Ukraine were all bent out of shape about (you know Yulia Tymoshenko). Tymoshenko just as corrupt as Yanukovych. But the difference is.. Tymoshenko's bitch is the EU and NATO. So her mistakes are overlooked.

    That's how the real world looks and works..
    Last edited by austrianecon; 03-21-14 at 07:50 AM.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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