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Thread: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148:245]

  1. #421
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Avoiding the question isn't such a great rebuttal.
    To the contrary - I have met the question right head on in its face.

    For several years now I have taken one consistent position here before all others: if you make an accusation against me as to what I believe or what my position is - it is totally incumbent upon the accuser to document it with quotes from me taking that position. I WILL NOT bail you out by putting myself on your witness stand with you in the position of prosecutor helping you out of the corner you painted yourself into.

    You see jMotivator - when one does that it only encourages irresponsible allegations since the person making them knows they can go on a fishing expedition and make the person they irresponsibly accused give testimony which helps them out. And that is the type of intellectual laziness which will NOT be rewarded by me nor abetted by me.

    I am more than happy to engage in any discussion about my actual positions I have taken but simply provide that position from me before that discussion can take place.

    Nothing could be fairer than that.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    To the contrary - I have met the question right head on in its face.

    For several years now I have taken one consistent position here before all others: if you make an accusation against me as to what I believe or what my position is - it is totally incumbent upon the accuser to document it with quotes from me taking that position. I WILL NOT bail you out by putting myself on your witness stand with you in the position of prosecutor helping you out of the corner you painted yourself into.

    You see jMotivator - when one does that it only encourages irresponsible allegations since the person making them knows they can go on a fishing expedition and make the person they irresponsibly accused give testimony which helps them out. And that is the type of intellectual laziness which will NOT be rewarded by me nor abetted by me.

    I am more than happy to engage in any discussion about my actual positions I have taken but simply provide that position from me before that discussion can take place.

    Nothing could be fairer than that.
    You can rationalize why you won't answer a simple question all you want, but it doesn't change the impression.

    I mean, you can accuse me of something and as a gratuitous assertion I am only responsible for a gratuitous denial. If you choose to pursue it then you would need evidence.

    You haven't issued the gratuitous denial yet, even when asked specifically to make it, leaving the clear impression that the gratuitous assertion was closer to accurate than you are comfortable denying.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

  3. #423
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    You can rationalize why you won't answer a simple question all you want, but it doesn't change the impression.

    I mean, you can accuse me of something and as a gratuitous assertion I am only responsible for a gratuitous denial. If you choose to pursue it then you would need evidence.

    You haven't issued the gratuitous denial yet, even when asked specifically to make it, leaving the clear impression that the gratuitous assertion was closer to accurate than you are comfortable denying.
    I have met the question right head on in its face. And in doing so I deny a reward to intellectual laziness by offering you a shortcut for your own lack of work and research.

    I was trained in collegiate debate. I debated in college for two years all over this nation against some of the best. We were trained to always understand that it is the complete and total responsibility of the person making the allegation to support that claim with verifiable evidence. When they cannot do that, simply pointing out their failure scores the matter in your favor.

    For several years now I have taken one consistent position here before all others: if you make an accusation against me as to what I believe or what my position is - it is totally incumbent upon the accuser to document it with quotes from me taking that position. I WILL NOT bail you out by putting myself on your witness stand with you in the position of prosecutor helping you out of the corner you painted yourself into.

    You see jMotivator - when one does that it only encourages irresponsible allegations since the person making them knows they can go on a fishing expedition and make the person they irresponsibly accused give testimony which helps them out. And that is the type of intellectual laziness which will NOT be rewarded by me nor abetted by me.

    I am more than happy to engage in any discussion about my actual positions I have taken but simply provide that position from me before that discussion can take place.

    Nothing could be fairer than that.

    I do fully realize that there are some here who prefer the prosecutorial approach and feel it is their right to make any manner of unfounded allegations or claims and to put the other person on the defensive. Sorry - try that on some newbie without proper training. Its not going to work here and its not going to work on me.
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I have met the question right head on in its face. And in doing so I deny a reward to intellectual laziness by offering you a shortcut for your own lack of work and research.

    I was trained in collegiate debate. I debated in college for two years all over this nation against some of the best. We were trained to always understand that it is the complete and total responsibility of the person making the allegation to support that claim with verifiable evidence. When they cannot do that, simply pointing out their failure scores the matter in your favor.
    Which would be fine in formal debate, which this isn't. I am simply pointing out that to the outside observer the absence of a gratuitous denial is rather telling.


    For several years now I have taken one consistent position here before all others: if you make an accusation against me as to what I believe or what my position is - it is totally incumbent upon the accuser to document it with quotes from me taking that position. I WILL NOT bail you out by putting myself on your witness stand with you in the position of prosecutor helping you out of the corner you painted yourself into.
    I am a third party to this. I am, again, simply pointing out the difference is these two forms of exchange:

    Conversation 1:

    Person 1: "You ate the last bagel!"
    Person 2: "No I didn't!"
    Person 1: "Yes you did!"
    Person 2: "Then prove it!"

    Conversation 2:

    Person 1: "You ate the last bagel!"
    Person 2: "You can't prove it!"

    In the first conversation the casual observer will identify with Person 2 and withhold judgement, in Conversation 2 Person 2 comes off as guilty as charged.

    All you need to do is deny the claim, but you don't. It makes it look like you fully expect that there is evidence out there that you support higher taxes on the rich to pay for more entitlements for the poor (which is the extent of the claim Fletch leveled against you) so you won't commit to a denial.

    The other alternative would be to simply accept Fletch's assertion and challenge him on why that should matter.


    You see jMotivator - when one does that it only encourages irresponsible allegations since the person making them knows they can go on a fishing expedition and make the person they irresponsibly accused give testimony which helps them out. And that is the type of intellectual laziness which will NOT be rewarded by me nor abetted by me.
    When one person makes a gratuitous assertion and the other person doesn't deny the claim then it encourages irresponsible allegations because, in the end, it looks like the charge was valid.

    I am more than happy to engage in any discussion about my actual positions I have taken but simply provide that position from me before that discussion can take place.
    You've given nobody reason to since you haven't actually rejected the claim that you support wealth transfer.

    Nothing could be fairer than that.
    It isn't fair or unfair. You have a very simple out that you refuse to take and it makes you look guilty. It is as simple as that.

    I do fully realize that there are some here who prefer the prosecutorial approach and feel it is their right to make any manner of unfounded allegations or claims and to put the other person on the defensive. Sorry - try that on some newbie without proper training. Its not going to work here and its not going to work on me.
    No, that is my whole point. You don't need to be on the defensive. A gratuitous assertion can be denied gratuitously. The only defense required of you is "No I don't." or an acceptance of the claim followed by "Why does that matter in this case?" and Fletch then has a heavy burden placed on him to make his case. Without either of those he can just assume he hit the nail on the head.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Which would be fine in formal debate, which this isn't.
    This site is about debate - even uses that term in its identifying name and title. Debate is debate is debate regardless if it is formal like a collegiate debate or here. Billy Shakespeare said something about a rose and it applies to debate also.

    You seem to put a lot of stock about how you perceive things will look to others and why I should be concerned about it.



    It makes it look like you fully expect that ......
    in the end, it looks like the charge was valid.

    You've given nobody reason to since you haven't actually rejected the claim that you support wealth transfer.





    I could not care less. I simply insist on proper procedures and insist that those telling me what I believe back up their statements with verifiable proof.

    That is my position now regarding people telling me what my beliefs or positions are.

    That has always been my position regarding people telling me what my beliefs or positions are.

    That will continue to be my position in the future regarding people telling me what my beliefs or positions are.

    I am more than happy to discuss my beliefs or positions. Just quote them to me to make sure they are before you go telling me what they are. otherwise- you got nothing except the musings inside your own head. And that is verifiable evidence of nothing about my views or positions.
    Last edited by haymarket; 03-10-14 at 12:25 PM.
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    This site is about debate - even uses that term in its identifying name and title. Debate is debate is debate regardless if it is formal like a collegiate debate or here. Billy Shakespeare said something about a rose and it applies to debate also.
    How about this post as evidence of how seriously you take debate here?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Republicans care about one thing and only one thing - more money in their own pockets. Everything else is just lipstick on the pig.
    Obviously you seem to understand the difference between informal and formal debate as you seem just as comfortable making gratuitous assertions on this forum as Fletch does.

    I could not care less. I simply insist on proper procedures and insist that those telling me what I believe back up their statements with verifiable proof.

    That is my position now regarding people telling me what my beliefs or positions are.

    That has always been my position regarding people telling me what my beliefs or positions are.

    That will continue to be my position in the future regarding people telling me what my beliefs or positions are.

    I am more than happy to discuss my beliefs or positions. Just quote them to me to make sure they are before you go telling me what they are. otherwise- you got nothing except the musings inside your own head. And that is verifiable evidence of nothing about my views or positions.
    Well that is absurdly false because you have now spent a lot of effort not answering a question asking you what your beliefs actually are. It sure seems like a question that is easier to answer than to avoid.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    How about this post as evidence of how seriously you take debate here?



    Obviously you seem to understand the difference between informal and formal debate as you seem just as comfortable making gratuitous assertions on this forum as Fletch does.



    Well that is absurdly false because you have now spent a lot of effort not answering a question asking you what your beliefs actually are. It sure seems like a question that is easier to answer than to avoid.
    And I will continue to spend as much time as it takes to educate people about the responsibility of backing up their claims against me. I will gladly make 100 posts to educate others about the responsibility of supporting their claims about my beliefs or positions than spend a single post bailing them out and relieving them of their own responsibilities.

    I am more than happy to concede that my statement about Republicans and money is my personal opinion and not a claim of absolute fact. The most of what goes on here falls into that category and that is fine no matter if it comes from others or from myself. But when somebody makes a claim about what I or anyone else here believes or what their positions are - that is a claim of fact that must be proven with verifiable evidence.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And I will continue to spend as much time as it takes to educate people about the responsibility of backing up their claims against me. I will gladly make 100 posts to educate others about the responsibility of supporting their claims about my beliefs or positions than spend a single post bailing them out and relieving them of their own responsibilities.
    You are a hypocrite who thinks he is being cunning in dodging a direct question on the grounds of proper debate decorum while defending your own statements because....

    I am more than happy to concede that my statement about Republicans and money is my personal opinion and not a claim of absolute fact. The most of what goes on here falls into that category and that is fine no matter if it comes from others or from myself. But when somebody makes a claim about what I or anyone else here believes or what their positions are - that is a claim of fact that must be proven with verifiable evidence.
    .... this isn't formal debate.

    So since you conceded your goofy pretense of formal, can you finally answer Fletch's question?
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    You are a hypocrite who thinks he is being cunning in dodging a direct question on the grounds of proper debate decorum while defending your own statements because....



    .... this isn't formal debate.

    So since you conceded your goofy pretense of formal, can you finally answer Fletch's question?
    This is debate. The title of the site says so.

    What is there about my very clear explanation that you still do not comprehend?
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    This is debate. The title of the site says so.

    What is there about my very clear explanation that you still do not comprehend?
    As I said, you claim discussions here are formal debate when you want them to be, but not when you don't want it to be. You voice an opinion of a whole group of people and you think it's fine, then throw a tantrum when someone dares have an opinion of you.

    Here is my opinion: I find your double standard to be hypocritical.

    Fletch made a statement that is his opinion of you. You have done nothing to dissuade him of that opinion. Your attempts to make authoritative declarations of what Fletch's responsibility is to prove that opinion based on your college debate prowess is laughable. You can prove Fletch's opinion false simply by stating that you beliefs do not match his opinion. I am now convinced that you won't do that because he is correct in his opinion.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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