Page 39 of 46 FirstFirst ... 293738394041 ... LastLast
Results 381 to 390 of 455

Thread: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148:245]

  1. #381
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Theoretical Physics Lab
    Last Seen
    01-06-15 @ 11:06 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    25,120

    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    I think playing cops and robbers/ play fighting at recess on the play ground is fine, but a group of boys took the game into the classrooms and was escalating throughout the school. I picture a Lord of the Flies scenario starting to take over the school.
    And boys who play with dolls will grow up to be gay, right? You seem to have that "cause and effect" game down pat.

  2. #382
    Sage
    Moot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:03 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    27,460

    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    And boys who play with dolls will grow up to be gay, right? You seem to have that "cause and effect" game down pat.
    Thats weird, because I don't recall ever saying any such thing.

  3. #383
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:45 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,811

    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    1: The only way its going to be looked at is if it is "violated" and punishment happens. Otherwise it would get ignored.

    2: You have already indicated that until it is changed people should be punished for violating it. Despite you even agreeing that in the given scenario it should be looked at and "possibly" changed. That is where we difer. No kid...or anyone for that matter...should be punished for violating idiotic rules/laws.
    If we have an official policy that has been adopted and approved by a Board - that policy should be enforced on the school level with students who violate it subject to the sanctions of that policy. If we want to look at changing aspects of that policy, there are ways and procedures to do that as I have repeatedly stated without using children as little pawns on behalf of parents with an axe to grind.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  4. #384
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:45 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,811

    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    There are a million ways that a kid can disrupt the learning environment and you cannot...have not....made zero tolerance policies against them all.

    It is YOUR JOB as a teacher to control your class AND ascertain on an individual basis how to correct a discipline problem. Not have some blanket policy that you can just toss out there and affect a kid *unnecessarily and inappropriately* just because it's easier and covers the school's liability.

    And when you cannot successfully discipline the kid, then you go to the administration and the parents....It's not your fault and it's not your job if a kid is a true problem or threat. But it *should be your job/administration's job* to assess every kid individually.....instead of just punting to some blanket policy to get out of it and cover your asses.
    But that is exactly why we have developed zero tolerance policies and have done our best to remove case by case judgments and adjudication's of the same. School districts got sick and tired of paying out money to both defend and settle actions taken against them accusing them of unequal enforcement of rules. This was particularly sensitive when persons or groups claimed that it was their ethnicity, or race , or gender or religion or some other characteristic which caused them to be punished while others were not for similar behaviors.

    Your statement about a teachers discretion in handling discipline becomes less and less true with each passing year as a district strives for more and more uniformity all in the name of fairness and equality.

    I tend to agree with your last statement that we need to look at kids individually and each case assessed individually. I think that is fair and proper and the way to do it.

    Having said that, I have been part of committees who both participated in developing these policies as well as criticizing and reviewing them and can only relate to you the background and reasons for some of them.

    There is a price to pay for everything. Perhaps we have found one of the unfortunate prices we pay for trying to remove arbitrary and capricious punishment from children on a case by case basis?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  5. #385
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:45 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,811

    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I stated why I don't want to get into it here. I can't help if you believe what you just wrote here.
    I would sincerely hope that you and every person here would want me to continue to write such truth each and every time anyone here makes accusations against me but is unable to back them up with verifiable evidence. I would never try to prevent anyone here from making allegations or claims but in turn they should expect to be challenged to back it up with evidence that can be verified and checked to see if what they say is fact or just repeating the meme of a few discontinued people.

    Regardless if it is one individual or twenty or more, each will be challenged in the same manner. Integrity, fairness and honesty demands that it be done.
    Last edited by haymarket; 03-08-14 at 06:07 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #386
    Sage
    Lursa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Outside Seattle
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,796

    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket;1063011595
    There is a price to pay for everything. Perhaps we have found one of the unfortunate prices we pay for trying to remove [B
    arbitrary and capricious punishment[/B] from children on a case by case basis?
    The bold is exactly what was applied in the case we are discussing *IMO*. The policy can do more harm than good.

    And doing the right thing by individual kids is more important than CYA for liability. Justice IS an individual treatment, not a blanket.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  7. #387
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:45 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,811

    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    The bold is exactly what was applied in the case we are discussing *IMO*. The policy can do more harm than good.

    And doing the right thing by individual kids is more important than CYA for liability. Justice IS an individual treatment, not a blanket.
    While I am willing to concede a policy like this does indeed do harm, I would not go as far as to agree it does more harm than good without seeing some data.

    And I have agreed with your conclusions about handling it on a case by case basis but only ask that people understand why such things were adopted in the first place. It has far more to do with a school district covering its own ass and limiting liability and court actions that it does the softening of boys or any campaign against guns.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  8. #388
    Sage
    Lursa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Outside Seattle
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,796

    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    While I am willing to concede a policy like this does indeed do harm, I would not go as far as to agree it does more harm than good without seeing some data.

    And I have agreed with your conclusions about handling it on a case by case basis but only ask that people understand why such things were adopted in the first place. It has far more to do with a school district covering its own ass and limiting liability and court actions that it does the softening of boys or any campaign against guns.
    Yes...thank you.

    However the system seems to have forgotten that it supposed to be educating kids, not building a protective bureaucracy.

    I would not agree...but realize there isnt any data...that the policy is more productive for educating kids...I think it teaches alot of bad things...like avoiding accountability.

    There needs to be a way to make the parents more accountable...it starts there IMO, by no means do I believe that it's the school's business to do half the disciplinary activity they do....they do it by forfeit...because the parents do not. The schools should have the balls and budgets to stand up to parents and set some examples.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #389
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:45 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,811

    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Yes...thank you.

    However the system seems to have forgotten that it supposed to be educating kids, not building a protective bureaucracy.

    I would not agree...but realize there isnt any data...that the policy is more productive for educating kids...I think it teaches alot of bad things...like avoiding accountability.

    There needs to be a way to make the parents more accountable...it starts there IMO, by no means do I believe that it's the school's business to do half the disciplinary activity they do....they do it by forfeit...because the parents do not. The schools should have the balls and budgets to stand up to parents and set some examples.
    That depends on if the school wants to stand up to the parents and set some examples. I have seen many school districts who are only more than willing to adopt strict policies as a general rule but who tend to cave in like a house of cards in a strong gale when an angry parent comes in especially if Mommy or Daddy is a lawyer or brings one with them or starts talking lawsuit. I think that is why so many adopted these policies in the first place so they could agree with the parents complaints but hold up their hands and claim they were tied just the same.

    And with school budgets in many places cut to the bone over the last several years, I am not sure they want that legal fight which can be costly as well as time consuming not to mention taking their attention away from their real mission while tending to all that is necessary in a lawsuit and attendant publicity in the community.

    As somebody who spent 33 years in public schools teaching - I can honestly tell you that there are no easy solutions to these problems because it their core - they are NOT educational problems but social and political problems. Just read over this thread and that becomes evident.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #390
    Sage
    Lursa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Outside Seattle
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:20 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,796

    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    That depends on if the school wants to stand up to the parents and set some examples. I have seen many school districts who are only more than willing to adopt strict policies as a general rule but who tend to cave in like a house of cards in a strong gale when an angry parent comes in especially if Mommy or Daddy is a lawyer or brings one with them or starts talking lawsuit. I think that is why so many adopted these policies in the first place so they could agree with the parents complaints but hold up their hands and claim they were tied just the same.

    And with school budgets in many places cut to the bone over the last several years, I am not sure they want that legal fight which can be costly as well as time consuming not to mention taking their attention away from their real mission while tending to all that is necessary in a lawsuit and attendant publicity in the community.

    As somebody who spent 33 years in public schools teaching - I can honestly tell you that there are no easy solutions to these problems because it their core - they are NOT educational problems but social and political problems. Just read over this thread and that becomes evident.
    I completely agree. But I also think that the schools should NOT allow parents and fear of lawsuits to do this kind of damage because it DOES teach kids things....the wrong things. Social things, yes, but still the wrong things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

Page 39 of 46 FirstFirst ... 293738394041 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •