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Thread: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148:245]

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I've seen your beliefs on what peoples rights are Haymarket. Suffice it to say that your version and mine are different.
    Really? What rights that Americans have have you seen me not support?

    Feel free to quote me on those exact rights and how I do not support them.

    Not only did I inform students of their rights - but I also gave them in writing this directive: if I tell you to do something, please do it. If I ever tell you to do something that is illegal, immoral or a violation of your rights as laid out in the school code and student handbook, not only should you (1) NOT do it, but you should most certainly (2) get up and leave the room, (3) proceed directly and speedily to the principals office where you should (4) file a written report against me, and (5) petition the Board of Education to have me removed as a teacher for this serious offense against you.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Huge difference here....kids have been playing with imaginary weapons in purely play for thousands of years. Drawing ones thumb/finger across your throat from ear to ear however has been universally considered a threat for the same amount of time.
    A threat is a threat is a threat and the person on the other end of it is the one to decide if it is taken that way.

    And I see no difference in the example I gave as the same exact reasoning that is used to mock the gun threat can be used to mock the throat slashing threat also: its done with a finger and can do nobody any hard in any way.

    But I am cheered by your acceptance that use of a hand to signal a threat can indeed be serious.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    We never played cowboys and indians at school and Ill bet most people didnt, either. That was something you played in your back yard or an open field, but not at school. Nobody took their toy guns or dollies to school...thats stupid.
    I did. I also played superman with lasers coming out of my eyes. Batman and Robin..including the Joker and all utilities/weapons that they all use. And many other like minded games.
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post

    Not only did I inform students of their rights - but I also gave them in writing this directive: if I tell you to do something, please do it. If I ever tell you to do something that is illegal, immoral or a violation of your rights as laid out in the school code and student handbook, not only should you (1) NOT do it, but you should most certainly (2) get up and leave the room, (3) proceed directly and speedily to the principals office where you should (4) file a written report against me, and (5) petition the Board of Education to have me removed as a teacher for this serious offense against you.
    That ensures that a student and/or parent really has to work for it, doesn't it? Some of that is to protect against unnecessary complaints, but it likewise serves to keep an imbalance (justified or not).
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Statist? How does you calling silly names out of the right wing playbook further any debate. Unless you are a anarchist, you to believe in the necessity of the state. So lets stop the nonsense.
    One doesn't need to be an anarchist or a statist to believe that both have validity in certain situations. You are a statist because you unequivocally believe that the state rules/laws should always be followed no matter what and anything that includes civil disobediance should not be tolerated and are fully in favor of punishment for that civil disobediance. To put it simply and to show a bit of geekiness you would be considered "lawful good" in dungeons and dragons terms: IE someone that follows the law and believes others should follow the law no matter what. Me on the other hand would be considered "chaotic good". I fully believe in following the laws...until they interfere with what is actually right. One person follows the law and nothing else. The other follows morality. Both have their merits. Both have their drawbacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Mob rule? Who is supporting mob rule?
    You are by stating that in a school setting if the school has a zero tolerance policy, which is voted on by a bunch of people, which includes being against a kid playing cops and robbers with imaginary finger guns, then the kid should be punished.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It seems that with these two things you have now put reason and rational discussion aside in favor of the usual far right tactics.
    As I've said it before and I'll say again. Just because one side has a bunch of idiots does not mean that ALL of their ideas or beliefs are idiotic. That applies to the far right, the far left, and everything in between. So, if you consider my position/statements to be far right.... don't really care. Being what you consider a far right tactic does not automatically negate its validity.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    as to the Japanese system:

    You said that the first time. Again, I ask you to explain this as I see no reason Americans cannot have an American standard across America for an American system of public education for Americans.
    Yep. I did. Perhaps because I don't know how to make it any plainer? If you don't see how a standardized system of rules would be viewed differently by different people because of their differences in culture then I'm not sure how I can explain it to you. Maybe by going to extreme's? Let's try.

    There have been cases where a muslim father would kill thier child because they act in a non-muslim way. Would such a father accept a rule that forbid the wearing of a hijab in a school if the majority of people voted to ban Hajib's in a state wide ban due to safety reasons? Note: I'm not saying that a father would kill their child in such an instance...just setting the stage for cultural differences. Also note that the father has to send their kid to public school because financially, time wise and legally they have to send their child to one. Financially because 1: the father can't afford a private school and 2: because the father can't take time away from work to teach their child on their own. And legally if you don't prove that you are adequately homeschooling your child then you must send them to public/private school.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Really? What rights that Americans have have you seen me not support?
    Don't think I really want to get into this. You hedge and haw so much on certain rights that you always avoid saying out right what is clearly implied in the majority of your posts.

    I might participate in such a thread but I'm not about to make such a thread as that would be a call out thread.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    A threat is a threat is a threat and the person on the other end of it is the one to decide if it is taken that way.

    And I see no difference in the example I gave as the same exact reasoning that is used to mock the gun threat can be used to mock the throat slashing threat also: its done with a finger and can do nobody any hard in any way.

    But I am cheered by your acceptance that use of a hand to signal a threat can indeed be serious.
    Except it is not the person that is on the other end of that imaginary finger gun in the middle of playing cops and robbers that is deciding if it is an actual threat. A third party is.

    I've also never claimed that a hand signal cannot be considered a threat. But when two (or more) kids are playing cops and robbers and both kids are using their imaginary finger guns I'm pretty sure that no threat is being issued. I'm also pretty sure that you realize that but wish to continue considering ALL of them as threats.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    That ensures that a student and/or parent really has to work for it, doesn't it? Some of that is to protect against unnecessary complaints, but it likewise serves to keep an imbalance (justified or not).
    It protected both the individual student and me as the teacher and the school itself. But far far far more importantly, it protected the learning environment in the classroom for thirty other students who did not have their learning upset on a daily basis by some person who thought their ability to disrupt and disturb were more important than thirty other people. I owed at least that to every kid handed to me to educate.
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Except it is not the person that is on the other end of that imaginary finger gun in the middle of playing cops and robbers that is deciding if it is an actual threat. A third party is.

    I've also never claimed that a hand signal cannot be considered a threat. But when two (or more) kids are playing cops and robbers and both kids are using their imaginary finger guns I'm pretty sure that no threat is being issued. I'm also pretty sure that you realize that but wish to continue considering ALL of them as threats.
    Of course that is true. We do NOT expect children to personally judge and prosecute every supposed act against them. That would be absurd in the extreme.

    I would agree about two kids playing cops and robbers in a pretend game situation. And I would think that sort of thing needs to be looked at and possible changed.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Don't think I really want to get into this. You hedge and haw so much on certain rights that you always avoid saying out right what is clearly implied in the majority of your posts.

    I might participate in such a thread but I'm not about to make such a thread as that would be a call out thread.
    Got it - you are unable to document what you claimed in making an allegation against me about not supporting rights.

    Even if I am as cautious as you claim, you would have thought in 42,000 posts I screwed up somewhere and revealed by secret authoritarian beliefs and my desire to abolish all rights in the land.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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