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Thread: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148:245]

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    Thats funny because I havent heard any news report of an adult being arrested for pointing his finger at anyone. You know why? Because of such a law even existed cops wouldnt be STUPID enough to enforce it because they would be sued. Yet our schools somehow enforce this stupidity on our children.

    Children are NOT adults and the same standards of behavior cannot be applied to them.
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148:245]

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    Many guns righters want this boy to have a gun, as we've seen in television ads.
    If/when the boy goes wrong, schools will be blamed, not the Father .
    Bull, its a total over reaction from the school.

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Children are NOT adults and the same standards of behavior cannot be applied to them.
    You're right, the same standards should not be applied to children as to adults. Being as they are children it should be understood that they do not know everything and as such should be given far more leniancy than adults when it comes to behavior. No child should have more rules than an adult.
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I guess I don't have much to contrast it with since I never went to school. I'm not sure you had actually earned their "respect." Rather, their view may have been that it was now established he is your superior and it could come across as whimpy if he just kept beating up the same kid.
    This might have been true for some, but not all. I've seen some bully's that would continue to pound on a kid that never fought back.
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    (1) It sounds like you do not like the American system of representative government as your complaining is more generic about the nature of political representation that anything else. I have no doubt that some do a good job of representing the people that elect them and some do not while others vary in the middle. So what? That is the nature of the game in the USA.
    I like the system just fine. I hate the politicians. I have yet to find an actual honest politician.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    (2) I simply asked you if you knew of any parental outrage against zero tolerance so we can see if this is indeed a national movement or if it just a few marginalized individuals with their own axe to grind like those here who disguise their frustration complaining about feminization of boys or gun policy or just a hankering for the good old days when you could kick somebodys ass and be done with them instead of reporting it to the proper authorities
    I know lots. You can even see some on the threads that talk about zero tolerance on DP. I'm sure you've seen them. If not, well...look again.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    (3) Thank you for the link. I will read your information you provided and get back with you. Promise.
    EDIT - I read the article and thought there were some good points. They accept the necessity of zero tolerance for things like guns in school. I agree that some of these other lesser offenses need to be examined and periodically evaluated. I think the way to NOT do this is have little rebellions in school by kids coached by angry parents who did not get their way at the school board meeting. That is not the way to educate our kids nor run a school for the greater benefit of the entire community.
    The only way any law or rule gets fully examined is if there are little rebellions. Thats simply a fact of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    But please keep in mind what motivated these policies in the first place as I have explained several times in several posts.
    There is a difference between a policy that is meant to do good but is used idiotically. Zero Tolerance towards kids bringing guns to school is a fine thing and no one disputes that. However when that zero tolerance is then used to ban even a child pointing their fingers and acting like its a gun in the course of a game, or chewing a pop tart into the form of a gun goes beyond common sense rules. No Zero Tolerance policy was ever originally meant to be taken so far. The only ones that would take it so far are at best idiots.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    (4) We disagree about who should run a school. I am a big believer in a national standard and a national curriculum and national policies like the Japanese system which has yielded such amazing results from one end of the nation to the other. But that is not the subject of this thread. The reality is that zero tolerance is adopted by states and localities and not a national authority. So you are getting the system you want but not the results you favor.
    One size fits all is exactly why we are in such trouble. Its easy for the Japanese to have a national standard. For one very important reason, they do not vary culturally near as much as what is present in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    (5) Perhaps it causes trauma in the student on the other end? Perhaps it helps to work against a spirit of peace and cooperation that the school is working hard to achieve? Perhaps parents do not want their kids to be subject to this and classify it as bullying? Perhaps they take the entire episode more seriously than you seem to do?
    Bold: Seriously? That sounds like something straight from Dr. Phil. The most idiotic "dr" on this planet. Particularly since we are talking about kids playing. Which means mutual acceptance of a particular game.

    Underline: If that were true then they would also ban all sports as having sports is completely about competition and NOT cooperating with anyone but a select few people. It also causes hard feelings when players mess up or when players lose. Not to mention creates the Jock clique which often is at odd's with any other student that is not athletically inclined. Sorry but that was one of your lamest attempts at coming up with an explanation there.

    Red: Honestly, don't really care. It is NOT bullying unless used aggressively (and we're not talking about aggressive use here but play use). If used aggressively then I have no problem with making a kid stop, even suspending the kid for repeat offenses. But when used in play with no ill intent they can take the suspension and Dr. Phil idiocy and shove em.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    You're right, the same standards should not be applied to children as to adults. Being as they are children it should be understood that they do not know everything and as such should be given far more leniancy than adults when it comes to behavior. No child should have more rules than an adult.
    And in many regards they certainly are. Kids in school get away with tone of things that adults would be fired for on the job or at least disciplined or suspended for.

    Children have rules which apply to their particular station in life and in the environment they find themselves in. School is one such example.
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    (1)I like the system just fine. I hate the politicians. I have yet to find an actual honest politician.



    (2)I know lots. You can even see some on the threads that talk about zero tolerance on DP. I'm sure you've seen them. If not, well...look again.



    (3)The only way any law or rule gets fully examined is if there are little rebellions. Thats simply a fact of life.



    (4)There is a difference between a policy that is meant to do good but is used idiotically. Zero Tolerance towards kids bringing guns to school is a fine thing and no one disputes that. However when that zero tolerance is then used to ban even a child pointing their fingers and acting like its a gun in the course of a game, or chewing a pop tart into the form of a gun goes beyond common sense rules. No Zero Tolerance policy was ever originally meant to be taken so far. The only ones that would take it so far are at best idiots.



    (5) One size fits all is exactly why we are in such trouble. Its easy for the Japanese to have a national standard. For one very important reason, they do not vary culturally near as much as what is present in the US.



    (6)Bold: Seriously? That sounds like something straight from Dr. Phil. The most idiotic "dr" on this planet. Particularly since we are talking about kids playing. Which means mutual acceptance of a particular game.

    Underline: If that were true then they would also ban all sports as having sports is completely about competition and NOT cooperating with anyone but a select few people. It also causes hard feelings when players mess up or when players lose. Not to mention creates the Jock clique which often is at odd's with any other student that is not athletically inclined. Sorry but that was one of your lamest attempts at coming up with an explanation there.

    Red: Honestly, don't really care. It is NOT bullying unless used aggressively (and we're not talking about aggressive use here but play use). If used aggressively then I have no problem with making a kid stop, even suspending the kid for repeat offenses. But when used in play with no ill intent they can take the suspension and Dr. Phil idiocy and shove em.
    (1) I spent the last three years working in the Michigan legislature and there were times I shared your frustration. However, there are honest ones and I worked with them.

    (2) In a nation of 315 million people, of course there is going to be opinion either way on most issues. My point was a serious organized effort and evidence of it.

    (3) Little rebellions may indeed have a role in some situations. I am of the opinion - having spent 33 years in the public school system - that rules are better challenged and changed by going through established procedures - both on the student level and on the parental level with both the school and the Board who made the rules in the first place. It has been my experience that in school rebellions are not looked upon favorably and rarely get the results they strive for. But that is just my experience.

    (4) Again, a policy that you judge to be "idiotic" has been judged by others as wise and necessary. Again, there is a way for parents to challenge this without using their kids as pawns and telling them to break the rules to advance the parents agenda.

    (5) what does culture of the Japanese have to do with one national standard in the USA?

    (6) You asked for reasons and I gave you some that may be in the minds of the advocates. No more and no less than that.

    In the end, some parents felt that it was threatening to their child for another child to make a motion to them that imitated a gun shooting at them. You are free to feel that is going too far, but for some obviously it was not going too far.

    I am sorry but I do not watch Dr. Phil so I cannot comment about your statement in that area.
    __________________________________________________ _
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Do you want your kids thinking that rules and laws don't apply to them? We have places for people like that, it's called prison.
    It's also called the White House!

    It is easy to see, reading this thread, that many here want there kids to just be another brick in the wall. To teach blind obedience to bureaucratic rules does more overall harm that using common sense and standing on principle.

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    As someone who taught in the system for 33 years and spent the last 23 as a union rep...
    I suggest this involvement makes you less than an objective observer.

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Children are NOT adults and the same standards of behavior cannot be applied to them.
    Well anyone who wants to treat kids like idiots shouldnt be anywhere near them. When I tell my child to follow a rule I carefully explain to him why its important and sensible to do so.

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