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Thread: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148:245]

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    because it has nothing to do with my post. schools are suppose to use logic and thinking skills that is what school is about. no tolerance policies are the exact opposite of that. it is the opposite of having to think and use your brain.

    The policy is stupid which is why states legislature are trying to pass laws to prevent this very thing from happening. If a teacher or principle can't tell the difference between a threat and general kid play then they need to quit their job.

    no tolerance goes against the very reason that people go to school. to learn to think and to analyze a situation and make a logical decision.
    Some saying they were education for 3 decades lays blame on how lawsuit prone our society it as the reason for "zero tolerance." Your kid is accused of being a bully and so is my kid. The school decides that what your kid did wasn't so bad so gives a detention. The school decided what my kid was very serious, and issues I suspension.

    Next thing I'm in court suiting the school district claiming it is racial discrimination or gender discrimination or some other illegal discrimination. Even if I lose, the school district spends $50,000 in lawyer fees to win.

    His explanation for "zero tolerance" is by setting absolute rules that are applied 100% of the time then no one can claim discrimination. That makes some sense and is maybe of of 10,000 problems with the USA having a sue-em system for which there is no disincentive against bringing frivolous lawsuits. So even if someone sues you and loses - you probably lost 10s of thousands of dollars to "win." That's how lawyers want it and our government is overwhelming controlled by lawyers.

    Someone just sued McDonalds for $1.5 million claiming he didn't get enough napkins and declaring it was racist because a Latino manager allegedly said "you people" when he threw a fit about not enough napkins in the bag. It will cost that McDonald's franchise owner thousands of dollars to "win" that case.

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    So if a teacher told you take your seat and be quiet, what are you going to do, beat her/him up? And you wonder why there is 'zero tolerance" policies? Stop wondering, it's people like you that are the reason.
    Moving the goal posts much, this is not about what a teacher tells you to do during the normal course of the day.

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    because it has nothing to do with my post. schools are suppose to use logic and thinking skills that is what school is about. no tolerance policies are the exact opposite of that. it is the opposite of having to think and use your brain.

    The policy is stupid which is why states legislature are trying to pass laws to prevent this very thing from happening. If a teacher or principle can't tell the difference between a threat and general kid play then they need to quit their job.

    no tolerance goes against the very reason that people go to school. to learn to think and to analyze a situation and make a logical decision.
    I spent 33 years teaching kids to use their brain. I can teach them how to do that and that is what schools do. DO NOT confuse that with having the power to question every rule that is made for their safety.

    Teachers and principles for the most part DO NOT make policy on things like safety. Those are decisions made on a district level by Boards of Education elected by the people of the community. When zero tolerance policies are introduced, they are debated and decided upon in public meetings and - like all those decisions are subject to review and being examined again.

    A school cannot function is parents teach their kids to question whatever rule or policy they want to question and to NOT obey it. There is nothing wrong with challenging authority and that is welcome. The problem is when parents tell kids NOT TO OBEY THE RULES. That is a recipe for chaos and anarchy and you simply cannot run a school in that sort of environment.

    My post dealt head on with the point of yours. It had everything to do with it.

    It is your beliefs about school systems that need to be examined since they are the views of somebody believing with their heart rather than any actual knowledge or experience as to how to actually run and administer a school district and the schools within it.

    As I previously stated to another poster, zero tolerance policies took hold when districts found themselves attacked and sometimes sued in court for having unequal enforcement of rules and using the very discretion that you seem to favor. Individuals claimed they were being treated unfairly. Groups claimed they were being treated unfairly. To avoid these legal headaches and constant second guessing of board and administrator and teacher decisions, hard and fast zero tolerance policies were instituted and you find them from coast to coast in school of every type and stripe. Call it the product of our litigious soceity or our reaction to the afore mentioned criticism of unfairness and unequal treatment.

    Students learn ever single day in schools and districts with zero tolerance policies. To say otherwise is to defy reality of the everyday student experience. In my state of Michigan, they just announced standardized test scores rising for the fourth straight year and that is in the zero tolerance policy environment that you seem to loathe.

    http://www.wilx.com/home/headlines/M...247922631.html

    We have a ways to go. We need to continue to improve. But kids are thinking and learning.

    In short - kids are learning. Kids are getting an education. Kids are thinking.
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The school felt otherwise and they have a right to do that. If you do not like the school rules - you can
    1- lobby the school to change them
    2- lobby the school board to change them
    3- find a school with rules more to your liking
    4- home school your own children
    Actually no, the school does not have the right to arbritrarily make idiotic rules. In the end it is the parents who have the final say in regards to anything that involves their children so long as its not a safety issue and does not infringe on peoples rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your reply was civil disobedience. Do you even know the purpose of civil disobedience? The whole idea is to break the law or rule, stand trial for it, let your example serve to turn the public against the policy. It is not to have your kids break the rules and then pretend they can get away with it because Macho Man back home wants them to grow an bigger pair and has trouble with authority.
    Yep, I know exactly what civil disobedience is about. And I have no problem with letting my children know that if they feel that a rule or law is idiotic then they are free to break that rule or law and letting them know the consequences. And I will also let them know that if I agree with them then I will stand behind them 100% with their beliefs and actions.

    Thanks btw for dropping the act of this being some sort of safety issue. As it obviously is not.
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Sorry pal - but it did not work that way. Never in all my 33 classroom years did any parent triumph in a dispute about the rules the way you pretend you would. That is from real life.
    Pretend? Sorry but I don't pretend. When it comes to my children I fight tooth and nail for them and their rights. That is after all why I am an actual parent and not just a sperm donor.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Pretend? Sorry but I don't pretend. When it comes to my children I fight tooth and nail for them and their rights. That is after all why I am an actual parent and not just a sperm donor.

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    I agree, the Ohio zero tolerance law needs to be amended. But in this case, if the school had actually followed the letter of the law, the boy would have been expelled without warning (zero tolerance). Instead, the school used common sense and warned the students, sent out three letters to parents over the course of a month warning them of the consequences if the students behaviour continued and still the boys ignored the warnings. So no, common sense didn't work and the school was forced to follow the law and suspend him. If he does it again, he'll be expelled. I don't have a problem with that.
    I honestly don't care how many warnings a school gives out. If a rule or law is idiotic then I have no problem with my children ignoring it. Just because they warn people does not mean the rule/law is any less idiotic or make it some how right for them to enforce it or punish children for ignoring it.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Actually no, the school does not have the right to arbritrarily make idiotic rules. In the end it is the parents who have the final say in regards to anything that involves their children so long as its not a safety issue and does not infringe on peoples rights.


    Simple because you call a rule IDIOTIC does not make it that. These policies were adopted by boards of education around the nation and have been discussed before the public just like you say they should be. Parents have the say at meetings of the Board, at meetings of the school, and through the ballot box.

    Can you name or cite any districts where parents untied to get rid of these policies?

    I see no real effort to change this due to public outrage.

    Yep, I know exactly what civil disobedience is about. And I have no problem with letting my children know that if they feel that a rule or law is idiotic then they are free to break that rule or law and letting them know the consequences. And I will also let them know that if I agree with them then I will stand behind them 100% with their beliefs and actions.
    That is your decision. But we cannot run a school - let alone a system if such things are more than isolated incidents. That is simply reality.


    btw for dropping the act of this being some sort of safety issue. As it obviously is not.
    I have no idea what you mean as it is the job of local school boards to decide what is and what is not a safety issue.
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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148]

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    If you had read the article you would know the student wasn't expelled for pointing a finger. He was suspended after multiple warnings about playing a game called cops and robbers in the classroom and disrupting the class.
    Okay, if he was disrupting the class instead of on the playground, I can live with that. But cops and robbers, cowboys and indians etc should be fine for the playground. but I may be showing my age there.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Ohio Student Points Finger Like Gun, Is Suspended [W:148]

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    Okay, if he was disrupting the class instead of on the playground, I can live with that. But cops and robbers, cowboys and indians etc should be fine for the playground. but I may be showing my age there.
    Again, does anyone really still play cowboys and Indians? I suppose I would just HAVE to sue over that. "You let other kids play cowboys against my kid with finger guns? BIGOTS! RACISTS!!!!"

    Sounds like old folks postings.

    Actually, I wouldn't have any problem with kids playing cowboys and Indians. But I do suspect that **** would hit the fan if a school let kids play cowboys and Indians pretending to kill the Indians. How about playing Americans versus Mexicans?
    Last edited by joko104; 03-06-14 at 05:03 PM.

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