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Thread: Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine

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    Re: Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Some of the people.

    Here in Ukraine's most avidly Western-leaning, anti-Russian city, news that the rare honor had been bestowed on Stepan Bandera was met with jubilation. Disgust and dismay swept the Russian-speaking provinces, where Bandera is remembered as a Nazi collaborator.

    Yushchenko rattles Ukraine as election nears - Los Angeles Times
    this was all the way back in 2010.... and was done by the very president that was just removed from office.
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    Re: Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Politicalunrest View Post
    this was all the way back in 2010.... and was done by the very president that was just removed from office.
    More recent results from USAID.


     In terms of economic relations with external partners, Ukrainians have mixed opinion on whether it is better if Ukraine had better economic relations with Russia or Europe. Thirty–seven percent pick Russia, 27% pick Europe and 26% say Ukraine should have good relations with both. There are large differences across regions of the country. A majority of respondents in Kyiv (51%) and the West (57%) pick Europe, while a majority in Crimea (71%) and the East (53%) pick Russia. In the Center, 37% pick Russia and 23% pick Europe.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    More recent results from USAID.


     In terms of economic relations with external partners, Ukrainians have mixed opinion on whether it is better if Ukraine had better economic relations with Russia or Europe. Thirty–seven percent pick Russia, 27% pick Europe and 26% say Ukraine should have good relations with both. There are large differences across regions of the country. A majority of respondents in Kyiv (51%) and the West (57%) pick Europe, while a majority in Crimea (71%) and the East (53%) pick Russia. In the Center, 37% pick Russia and 23% pick Europe.
    I am not trying to be rude, so please done take it that way, but how does this have anything to do with Russia having the right / not having the right to go into the Ukraine, or weather the Parliament of Ukraine can impeach the president for war crimes and mass murder? i am not trying to sound sarcastic because this does seem to have a connection to this whole situation as Public Opinion in any democracy does, but i guess i just don't understand what point you were trying to make.
    Always remember... God Loves you.

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    Re: Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Politicalunrest View Post
    I am not trying to be rude, so please done take it that way, but how does this have anything to do with Russia having the right / not having the right to go into the Ukraine, or weather the Parliament of Ukraine can impeach the president for war crimes and mass murder? i am not trying to sound sarcastic because this does seem to have a connection to this whole situation as Public Opinion in any democracy does, but i guess i just don't understand what point you were trying to make.
    I believe the Russian troops were already in the Crimea and didn't invade anybody. The autonomous leadership of Crimean requested Russian support and they provided security in the areas needed. The Russians were also subsidizing the average Ukrainian citizen by selling the Nation Natural Gas almost half price compared to World Market values. Additionally, the Russians had agreed to loan $15 billion to Ukraine without requesting a devaluation of the Ukrainian currency nor commercial requests of any kind of privatization. The Russians sure sound like the good guys to me. Remember that our intrigue in Kiev has killed a lot of people. The events in Kiev were the results of covert planning and implementation and Victoria Nuland's statements absolutely guarantee that to be true.

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    Re: Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    I believe the Russian troops were already in the Crimea and didn't invade anybody. The autonomous leadership of Crimean requested Russian support and they provided security in the areas needed. The Russians were also subsidizing the average Ukrainian citizen by selling the Nation Natural Gas almost half price compared to World Market values. Additionally, the Russians had agreed to loan $15 billion to Ukraine without requesting a devaluation of the Ukrainian currency nor commercial requests of any kind of privatization. The Russians sure sound like the good guys to me. Remember that our intrigue in Kiev has killed a lot of people. The events in Kiev were the results of covert planning and implementation and Victoria Nuland's statements absolutely guarantee that to be true.
    Can you link me those statements? or an artical from a reputable source that would back you up saying that the US or even simply the west was behind the riots and protests? because i have neared nothing, even from the Russians about that. and they Usually are the first to jump to "its amaricas fault."
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    Re: Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Politicalunrest View Post
    Can you link me those statements? or an artical from a reputable source that would back you up saying that the US or even simply the west was behind the riots and protests? because i have neared nothing, even from the Russians about that. and they Usually are the first to jump to "its amaricas fault."
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...**-the-eu.html
    "State Dept Official Caught on Tape: ‘**** the EU’
    A senior official’s private conversation got taped and put on YouTube, and as she’s planning a deal to end the crisis in Ukraine, she has some harsh words for her European Union counterparts as well as Ukrainian opposition leader Vitali Klitschko.
    In the wake of revelations the NSA spied on foreign officials, the State Department’s top official for Europe has been caught on tape planning a deal to end the Ukraine crisis and she had a message for her European counterparts – “**** the EU.”

    A YouTube video uploaded by an anonymous user has publicly revealed a private conversations between Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, and Geoffrey Pyatt, the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine. In the tape, the two officials discuss a plan to broker a deal between the Ukrainian government led by Viktor Yanukovich and the Ukrainian opposition, which is led in part by former boxer Vitali Klitschko.

    The origin of the recording is unclear. It was upload by a user named “Maidan Puppets,” a reference to the Maidan Square in Kiev where protesters have fought the government and the Russian accusation that the protesters are puppets of the United States and the West. The video was first reported in the Kyiv Post.


    Nuland told Pyatt she had discussed the plan with U.N. Undersecretary for Political Affairs Jeffrey Feltman, a former senior U.S. Department official, and that he would appoint a U.N. representative to help move it forward. Vice President Joe Biden would also be brought into the plan at the right time, according to Nuland.

    “That would be great to help glue this thing and to have the U.N. help glue it,” she said. “And you know, **** the EU.”

    “I think we’re in play,” Pyatt tells Nuland about a plan to join the opposition and government into one unit, apparently being attempted by the U.S. government behind the scenes. The tape may have been referring to a late January power sharing deal that has since been rejected by opposition leaders. After Pyatt worries that there are “troubles in the marriage” inside the Ukrainian opposition, Nuland warns Pyatt against the idea of appointing Klitschko to be deputy prime minister and suggests the former boxer should stay out of any new Ukrainian government.

    “I don’t think Klitschko should go into the government. I don’t think it’s necessary. I don’t think it’s a good idea,” said Nuland.

    Nuland thought Ukrainian opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk would be in charge of the new government and Klitschko wouldn’t be able to get along with him. “It’s just not going to work,” she said.

    “Exactly, we’ve got to do something to make this thing stick together, because if it does start to gain altitude, the Russians will try to do something behind the scenes to torpedo it,” responded Pyatt.

    If the Russians did want to torpedo the idea, taping and leaking Nuland’s private conversation would be a great way to do it, experts said. Toby Gati, the former White House senior director for Russia, defended Nuland, saying that she was just recognizing that the EU was becoming an obstacle for deal making in Ukraine.

    Nuland "was expressing in shortened form the frustration with the inability of the EU to come up with any kind of sugar to make the medicine go down,” said Gati. “What she is saying is we’ve got a crisis here, we’ve got to move, we can’t go by EU business as usual.”


    There’s an irony in a senior U.S. official getting caught under secret surveillance, Gati noted, especially in the aftermath of revelations by Edward Snowden about NSA surveillance of foreign leaders.

    “This should be a wake up call about the way you do business and maybe this calls for some new communications equipment,” said Gati. But the news isn’t all bad, she said, because the tape shows the U.S. is actively working to end the crisis. “Finally, the U.S. is using its leverage and getting involved,” she said. “It’s actually trying to make policy, that’s the good part.”

    The State Department did not respond to a request for comment.

    UPDATE: At Thursday's State Department press briefing, Spokeswoman Jen Psaki said: "Certainly we think this is a new low in Russian tradecraft in terms of publicizing and posting this... I don’t have any other independent details about the origin of the YouTube video.”


    This is the latest revelation.

    Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders.
    Kiev Snipers Hired by Maidan Leaders - Leaked EU's Ashton Phone Tape

    The other link to Victoria Nuland's taped conversation, and it is the famous "F*ck the EU" tape, reveals that their new leadership choice would be "Yats" (Yatsenyuk) and not Klitschko. This conversation was weeks before the final Maidan fiasco. You're not likely to be assigning leadership positons unless you are part of the "coup." Ukraine is an energy hub or bottleneck or distribution center for Petro, gas and oil. In my mind Big Money buys our politicians in the USA and also buys the CIA. Corporate Energy, Corporate Banks, Corporate owned and operated Politicains merge with their counterparts in Ukraine and that would be people with the same educational backgrounds with Major degrees in Scumbaggery, and Minors in Deceit and treachery.
    Last edited by DaveFagan; 03-05-14 at 03:38 PM.

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    Re: Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Politicalunrest View Post
    I am not trying to be rude, so please done take it that way, but how does this have anything to do with Russia having the right / not having the right to go into the Ukraine, or weather the Parliament of Ukraine can impeach the president for war crimes and mass murder? i am not trying to sound sarcastic because this does seem to have a connection to this whole situation as Public Opinion in any democracy does, but i guess i just don't understand what point you were trying to make.
    No problem. In the West this is presented as a democratic move by "the" Ukrainian people, and that thug Putin is invading the Ukraine to suppress a push for democracy, then he's going to move on into Europe and at least one poster said he's going to rebuild the iron curtain and many are comparing him to Hitler and Stalin. My point is that half the countries loyalties are toward Russia, so the Kiev protesters, who became violent, injurious, disruptive to social services, destructive of public property, are not speaking for all Ukrainians. Additionally, as covert sponsors of this coup, the US has blood on their hands, AGAIN (still, whatever). So its completely reasonable that Russia would move to secure their property and interests which include many pro-Russian citizens. The whole thing is same old, same old US/Western intrigue, manipulation and deceit. Putin on the other hand has performed quite well having accomplished his goals in the region without killing a bunch of civilians and destroying a bunch of infrastructure, like the Bull in the china shop US does when we move to "secure" a place.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine

    Not to be rude but
    1. the link you posted was to the Daily Beast... not the most reputable source from what i have heard. and
    2. the Link goes to an empty dead page.....? So i have to leave your point about american involvement alone until we can find both another source and a working source that i can scrutinize if thats ok...
    3. To your point regarding the split public opinion of Ukrainian people... i can understand where you are going. I even agree with it some what, that it should have been resolved peacefully without bloodshed, but when one side starts shooting people dead in the street it goes from protests that are annoying people and disrupting city services and are simply bad form politically to stopping mass murder, so the Parliament did what it was supposed to by removing him. Then a new parliament was formed with half the country refusing to participate, so yea... it was skewed one direction, and admittedly so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No problem. In the West this is presented as a democratic move by "the" Ukrainian people, and that thug Putin is invading the Ukraine to suppress a push for democracy, then he's going to move on into Europe and at least one poster said he's going to rebuild the iron curtain and many are comparing him to Hitler and Stalin. My point is that half the countries loyalties are toward Russia, so the Kiev protesters, who became violent, injurious, disruptive to social services, destructive of public property, are not speaking for all Ukrainians. Additionally, as covert sponsors of this coup, the US has blood on their hands, AGAIN (still, whatever). So its completely reasonable that Russia would move to secure their property and interests which include many pro-Russian citizens. The whole thing is same old, same old US/Western intrigue, manipulation and deceit. Putin on the other hand has performed quite well having accomplished his goals in the region without killing a bunch of civilians and destroying a bunch of infrastructure, like the Bull in the china shop US does when we move to "secure" a place.
    Always remember... God Loves you.

    Good Luck

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    Re: Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Politicalunrest View Post
    Not to be rude but
    1. the link you posted was to the Daily Beast... not the most reputable source from what i have heard. and
    2. the Link goes to an empty dead page.....? So i have to leave your point about american involvement alone until we can find both another source and a working source that i can scrutinize if thats ok...
    3. To your point regarding the split public opinion of Ukrainian people... i can understand where you are going. I even agree with it some what, that it should have been resolved peacefully without bloodshed, but when one side starts shooting people dead in the street it goes from protests that are annoying people and disrupting city services and are simply bad form politically to stopping mass murder, so the Parliament did what it was supposed to by removing him. Then a new parliament was formed with half the country refusing to participate, so yea... it was skewed one direction, and admittedly so.
    There is no link in my post. But I'll find you one. Go here and you can get the link to Nuland's discussion in a four minute YouTube clip.

    http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/vict...regime-change/
    Last edited by Montecresto; 03-06-14 at 10:33 AM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Politicalunrest View Post
    Not to be rude but
    1. the link you posted was to the Daily Beast... not the most reputable source from what i have heard. and
    2. the Link goes to an empty dead page.....? So i have to leave your point about american involvement alone until we can find both another source and a working source that i can scrutinize if thats ok...
    3. To your point regarding the split public opinion of Ukrainian people... i can understand where you are going. I even agree with it some what, that it should have been resolved peacefully without bloodshed, but when one side starts shooting people dead in the street it goes from protests that are annoying people and disrupting city services and are simply bad form politically to stopping mass murder, so the Parliament did what it was supposed to by removing him. Then a new parliament was formed with half the country refusing to participate, so yea... it was skewed one direction, and admittedly so.
    Ukraine crisis: bugged call reveals conspiracy theory about Kiev snipers | World news | The Guardian

    "
    The conversation featuring EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton was poisted on YouTube. Photograph: Ye Pingfan/Rex


    A leaked phone call between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet has revealed that the two discussed a conspiracy theory that blamed the killing of civilian protesters in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, on the opposition rather than the ousted government.

    The 11-minute conversation was posted on YouTube – it is the second time in a month that telephone calls between western diplomats discussing Ukraine have been bugged.

    In the call, Paet said he had been told snipers responsible for killing police and civilians in Kiev last month were protest movement provocateurs rather than supporters of then-president Viktor Yanukovych. Ashton responds: "I didn't know … Gosh."
    "

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