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Russia Moves to Deploy Troops in Ukraine

Re: In truth, I'm not sure I've ever watched Fox News other than those excerpts poste

SBu said:
Yeah, the thread title is confusing. Very dangerous situation unfolding in Ukraine and will have international ripple affects.

Regarding Fox news, it seems to be the only network now devoted to actual news generally speaking. CNN only has editorials now it seems, and movies. I'm watching the penis looking guy that hosts Reliable Sources now, and all I've seen are liberal talking points, not even a discussion about Ukraine. MSNBC is an arm of the administration.

Think I've covered both the title and content of the thread here. Were you around during the cold war?
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I was around when sirens went off and you hid under your desk in preperation for all out nuclear war or as we used to call it, " put your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye". I think young people these days blow off the cold war because they didn't live through that.
 
Re: In truth, I'm not sure I've ever watched Fox News other than those excerpts poste

Let's try reality. Tymoshenko has gone to Moscow like Ted Cruz would go to the Koch brothers to get support. Julia is a crook and the Russians know that. Yanukovych is a crook and the Russians know that. Yats is a crook and the Russians know that. The "revolution" is simply CIA intrigue and the players were bluffing and Putin called and raised. If the Russians were oppressive, they wouldn't be so popular in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. The Russians were/are the only ones helping Ukraine. That would be gas at one half price of World mardet value, and the previously agreed purchase of $15 billion in Ukraine bonds. I haven't heard any comparable offers from the West. IMF loans always impoverish the borrower, like Greece, Ireland, etc. and result in "privatisation" of National infrastructure to the detriment of the borrower. The objective facts would indicate that Russia is the only Nation actually helping Ukraine in a legal "de facto" manner. We should be worried about Ukrainians here, not East West banking/money/Central Bank power plays. We, the USA, are guilty of creating this instability, just like Libya, just like Syria, Just like Egypt, just like the rogue CIA. The CIA is to protect USA CORPORATIONS overseas, so inquire what CORPORATIONS would stand to profit the most by this particular intrigue and then start follwoing the links. Russia has more interest in a stable and happy Ukraine than any Nation of the World. For the USA, it is not about liberty, democracy, freedom or any other popular Mainstream Media buzzword from the Mighty Wurlitzer, it is CORPORATE hegemony. End of story. Wake up, let's help Ukrainians and ask Putin what we can do to help as a partner.
 
Re: In truth, I'm not sure I've ever watched Fox News other than those excerpts poste

sawyerloggingon said:
I was around when sirens went off and you hid under your desk in preperation for all out nuclear war or as we used to call it, " put your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye". I think young people these days blow off the cold war because they didn't live through that.
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Why would we want to go back to those days?
 
Re: In truth, I'm not sure I've ever watched Fox News other than those excerpts poste

sawyerloggingon said:
I was around when sirens went off and you hid under your desk in preperation for all out nuclear war or as we used to call it, " put your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye". I think young people these days blow off the cold war because they didn't live through that.
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I remember being a child in the 50's and learning that "Duck and Cover" in case of a nuclear bomb and I was ready to make some snide remark about the effectiveness of a desk against a nuke......

But then I found this excerpt from the book "Hiroshima".
After the first Hiroshima atomic bombing in Japan, one Hiroshima policeman went to Nagasaki to teach police about ducking after the atomic flash. As a result of this timely warning, not a single Nagasaki policeman died in Nagasaki’s atomic blast
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I did not know that. Am glad I didn't make a fool out of myself this time.

This is Story of Hiroshima policman who survived 1st atomic bombing
 
Re: In truth, I'm not sure I've ever watched Fox News other than those excerpts poste

DaveFagan said:
Let's try reality. Tymoshenko has gone to Moscow like Ted Cruz would go to the Koch brothers to get support. Julia is a crook and the Russians know that. Yanukovych is a crook and the Russians know that. Yats is a crook and the Russians know that. The "revolution" is simply CIA intrigue and the players were bluffing and Putin called and raised. If the Russians were oppressive, they wouldn't be so popular in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. The Russians were/are the only ones helping Ukraine. That would be gas at one half price of World mardet value, and the previously agreed purchase of $15 billion in Ukraine bonds. I haven't heard any comparable offers from the West. IMF loans always impoverish the borrower, like Greece, Ireland, etc. and result in "privatisation" of National infrastructure to the detriment of the borrower. The objective facts would indicate that Russia is the only Nation actually helping Ukraine in a legal "de facto" manner. We should be worried about Ukrainians here, not East West banking/money/Central Bank power plays. We, the USA, are guilty of creating this instability, just like Libya, just like Syria, Just like Egypt, just like the rogue CIA. The CIA is to protect USA CORPORATIONS overseas, so inquire what CORPORATIONS would stand to profit the most by this particular intrigue and then start follwoing the links. Russia has more interest in a stable and happy Ukraine than any Nation of the World. For the USA, it is not about liberty, democracy, freedom or any other popular Mainstream Media buzzword from the Mighty Wurlitzer, it is CORPORATE hegemony. End of story. Wake up, let's help Ukrainians and ask Putin what we can do to help as a partner.
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Russia has its supporters in the Ukraine for two reasons. Some prosper under the corruption while others get a steady supply of scraps thrown their way and they become institutionalized. Kind of like what obama is attempting here, get so many people dependent on him and the DNC that they will never vote republican again.
 
Re: In truth, I'm not sure I've ever watched Fox News other than those excerpts poste

Crosscheck said:
I remember being a child in the 50's and learning that "Duck and Cover" in case of a nuclear bomb and I was ready to make some snide remark about the effectiveness of a desk against a nuke......

But then I found this excerpt from the book "Hiroshima".

I did not know that. Am glad I didn't make a fool out of myself this time.

This is Story of Hiroshima policman who survived 1st atomic bombing
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It would only help if you were on the very fringes of the blast.
 
Re: In truth, I'm not sure I've ever watched Fox News other than those excerpts poste

Not sure how the title of this thread got screwed up, it's supposed to be this, maybe a mod could fix it....
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polgara said:
:agree: Mobilizing as quickly as they did is not something that is normally an overnight decision. Financing the Olympics was a huge cost to Russia, but it may have been a useful foil to distract attention from his real agenda? It's starting to look that way! Clever on his part, since we were distracted and angry about his decision on not allowing gays to participate, while I would bet all my money he could personally care less about what a person's sexuality is. It did serve his purpose, though, in taking advantage of all the fluff and hoop-la the media created about it, while he concentrated on his power grab agenda.

While parts of the world may be sympathetic to our decision to treat everyone equally, raw power still carries more weight. What options does Obama have at this point? Get militarily involved, which most Americans don't agree with, and from what I've been reading we may not be ready for? Do nothing except lodge protests at the UN, which may be futile? Try negotiating, which Putin probably expects, and is prepared for? Interesting...
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Obama can't do much of anything significant to stop it. Military involvement is out of the question. The military is tired, and the public is tired of protracted war. We have only two of 10 carriers deployed, and we're busy downsizing. This situation is more about Russia exploiting the circumstances than anything in particular Obama has or hasn't done. We have been fairly flat footed in foreign affairs during his administration, but this is the action of an expansionist Russia filling a perceived power vacuum in an area where its simple for them to do so. The EU can't change their energy sources overnight and can't rebuild their military overnight either. Maybe it's a wake up call. I bet it is for Poland, and those ABM systems we cancelled could be back on the table in short order, among other things. Though I'd be surprised to see it, Putin may have just overplayed his hand. We'll see.
 
MaggieD said:
I'm just curious. Although this wouldn't be an exact parallel, do you think we'd listen to Russia if we sent troops into Mexico to protect American interests there?

I don't.
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Has The United States invaded other countries and murdered millions of people? Is the POTUS a former KGB colonel, that wishes to go back to the days of The Iron Curtain?
 
apdst said:
Has The United States invaded other countries and murdered millions of people? Is the POTUS a former KGB colonel, that wishes to go back to the days of The Iron Curtain?
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It is not our fight.
 
MaggieD said:
It is not our fight.
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At what point would it becomes our fight? When the Russians cross the Danube? Fulda Gap? The Rhine? The Meuse? The Channel? When they begin murdering millions of innocents?

Ignoring the situation could cost millions of lives. Addressing it now could, at worst, cost a few thousand...if any at all.

This is the prelude to WW2 happening all over again. Nothing could be more clear.
 
humbolt said:
Not much to do now. But when Ukraine became a NATO candidate in 2008 the opportunity to prevent this was on the table. I know it's hindsight, but the pursuit of better relations with Russia appears to be a hopeful approach to placate an international bully. It didn't work then, it won't work now, and it won't work tomorrow.
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Ukraine isn't a NATO country.

Hence the current situation...
 
apdst said:
At what point would it becomes our fight? When the Russians cross the Danube? Fulda Gap? The Rhine? The Meuse? The Channel? When they begin murdering millions of innocents?

Ignoring the situation could cost millions of lives. Addressing it now could, at worst, cost a few thousand...if any at all.

This is the prelude to WW2 happening all over again. Nothing could be more clear.
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Although my knowledge on international conflicts is admittedly limited, I think the existence of enough nuclear bombs to destroy every living thing on earth ten times over...by both sides...is probably complicating the situation.
 
Cardinal said:
Ukraine isn't a NATO country.

Hence the current situation...
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Ukraine may become a NATO member, along with Georgia, which could change the dynamics significantly.
 
apdst said:
Ukraine may become a NATO member, along with Georgia, which could change the dynamics significantly.
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That's not looking very likely at the moment.
 
Cardinal said:
Although my knowledge on international conflicts is admittedly limited, I think the existence of enough nuclear bombs to destroy every living thing on earth ten times over...by both sides...is probably complicating the situation.
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Perhaps. Allied and Axis forces during WW2 both possessed enough chemical and biological weapons to make the entire globe uninhabitable, too. That reality was enough to keep Hitler from using them.

A conflict in Crimea would most likely not see he use of nukes. 1) The US won't do it for moral and common sense reasons and 2) Russia won't turn it's latest prize into a nuclear waste land. The Crimea is far too important to Russia to do that.
 
apdst said:
Perhaps. Allied and Axis forces during WW2 both possessed enough chemical and biological weapons to make the entire globe uninhabitable, too. That reality was enough to keep Hitler from using them.

A conflict in Crimea would most likely not see he use of nukes. 1) The US won't do it for moral and common sense reasons and 2) Russia won't turn it's latest prize into a nuclear waste land. The Crimea is far too important to Russia to do that.
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There's probably a good reason why Russian and the United States didn't get into a face-to-face shooting incident even once during the entire span of the cold war. I don't think that reason has changed terribly much since then.
 
apdst said:
Which part?
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At the moment it's looking very likely that Ukraine will be absorbed within the influence of Russia (to put it nicely) too much for them to be thinking of NATO membership any time soon.
 
There are other issues at stake here, as well. The, "side show, to the big show", in the words of Sam Watkins.

Soviet policies on the peninsula led to widespread starvation in 1921.[citation needed] Food was confiscated for shipment to central Russia, while more than 100,000 Tatars starved to death, and tens of thousands fled to Turkey or Romania.[28] Thousands more were deported or slaughtered during the collectivization in 1928–29.[28] The government campaign led to another famine in 1931–33. No other Soviet nationality suffered the decline imposed on the Crimean Tatars; between 1917 and 1933 half the Crimean Tatar population had been killed or deported.

During World War II, the entire Crimean Tatar population in Crimea fell victim to Soviet policies. Although a great number of Crimean Tatar men served in the Red Army and took part in the partisan movement in Crimea during the war, the existence of the Tatar Legion in the Nazi army and the collaboration of Crimean Tatar religious and political leaders with Hitler during the German occupation of Crimea provided the Soviets with a pretext for accusing the whole Crimean Tatar population of being Nazi collaborators. Modern researchers also point to the fact that a further reason was the geopolitical position of Crimea where Crimean Tatars were perceived as a threat. This belief is based in part on an analogy with numerous other cases of deportations of non-Russians from boundary territories (see, e.g., Involuntary settlements in the Soviet Union), as well as the fact that other non-Russian populations, such as Greeks, Armenians and Bulgarians were also removed from Crimea.

Crimean Tatars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The Crimean Tatars will most likely resist Russian subjugation--with violence, no doubt. The potential for genocide of Stalinist proportions is high.
 
Cardinal said:
Ukraine isn't a NATO country.

Hence the current situation...
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Agreed, Membership in NATO was available in 2008. In 2010 the recently ousted president of Ukraine shelved the option. Not surprising that the Kremlin's man would do that.
 
Cardinal said:
At the moment it's looking very likely that Ukraine will be absorbed within the influence of Russia (to put it nicely) too much for them to be thinking of NATO membership any time soon.
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The Ukraine won't be, "absorbed", without a blood bath. There isn't a majority in The Ukraine that wants to be under Russian control.

The necessity of Russia's use of force will goad NATO into granting membership to The Ukraine and expedite Georgia's membership. The Ukrainians and Georgians would nothing more than to kill a bunch of Russians.

Something else to consider, is that half the Crimean Tatars are Muslim. If foreign jihadists start flocking to Crimea to defend brother Muslims, thing will definitely get bloody.

Yeah, it's easy to sit back and say, "it's not our fight", but when you look at the big picture, it's not hard to see how it could very easily become our fight.
 
Cardinal said:
There's probably a good reason why Russian and the United States didn't get into a face-to-face shooting incident even once during the entire span of the cold war. I don't think that reason has changed terribly much since then.
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Besides each country's nuclear arsenal, the Soviets knew they couldn't win. The Soviets were truly afraid of The United States, then.

Since we've elected a punk for a CIC and he's purged our armed services of most of the general officers that have any balls, the Russians aren't as afraid of us.

Integrating females and abolishing DADT don't help the situation.
 
The angle that I'm taking is not only does Putin think Obama is weak and that America has no stomach for real casualty rates, but consider that Obama's top military advisors are yes men. He's replaced, and ore retired all the real tough guys. So not only does Putin know this, he's doing what any good tactician would do, and that's seize upon the moment whilst your main opposition is out fund raising. :)

I laugh but this is actually quite serious, way more serious than the red line over Syria. The media, especially the left media (Which is almost all of them) are not covering this with any great deal of urgency, and once again covering for Obama. The words of Hillary come to mind. "What difference does it make"..

But hey, let's elect more progressives and progress ourselves to irrelevancy. China already bitch slapped Obama over Japans waters, and Putin said, hell yeah, I can one up ya..


Tim-
 
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