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Thread: Train station knife attack kills 27, injures 109 in China

  1. #111
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    Re: Train station knife attack kills 27, injures 109 in China

    Quote Originally Posted by MACS-24 View Post
    That would be hard to defend but at least with guns, knives, clubs, etc. give the people the ability and right to defend themselves. Not sure on accuracy but apparently in England it would be a crime to defend oneself.
    You are wise to be unsure about the emphasised statement, but probably unwise to make it.

    I am usually loath to enter into discussion upon the subject of gun control in the USA, but I am rather tiring of Americans misrepresenting the situation in the UK, for the purposes of justifying the preponderance of hand guns in their own society. As many people (both pro and con gun-control) have pointed out, direct comparisons between societies with considerably differing value systems are not always useful.

    I fear the misconception articulated in your statement arises from a perhaps simplistic understanding of what constitutes self defence, and also what constitutes a life threatening situation.

    Under Common Law a man is legally allowed self defence, and it is a patent nonsense to claim that in either in effect or in actuality, that constitutes a crime.

    The basic principles of self-defence are set out in (Palmer v R, [1971] AC 814); approved in R v McInnes, 55 Cr App R 551:

    "It is both good law and good sense that a man who is attacked may defend himself. It is both good law and good sense that he may do, but only do, what is reasonably necessary."

    The common law approach as expressed in Palmer v R is also relevant to the application of section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967:

    "A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."

    A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:

    self-defence; or
    defence of another; or
    defence of property; or
    prevention of crime; or
    lawful arrest.

    In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:

    1. was the use of force necessary in the circumstances, i.e. Was there a need for any force at all? and

    2. was the force used reasonable in the circumstances?
    Self Defence: Legal Guidance: The Crown Prosecution Service

    Many other factors - to numerous to include here - are involved in the evaluation of self defence, but it is a very real section of British Common Law, and a tort upon which your own legal structures depend.

    I am not about to instruct Americans about how they should conduct their society, but I would appreciate your not misrepresenting my own for your own political purposes. This has been done repeatedly in respect of both universal health care and gun control.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

  2. #112
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    Re: Train station knife attack kills 27, injures 109 in China

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Wow! That guy's a bad ass! I would definitely want him on my team in the case of a zombie apocalypse.
    Steve moved to the RSA after uncovering a poaching scandal that made his safety in Kenya untenable. Plus kenya closed down hunting so his profession ended. He died years later when a truck hauling a boat lost the trailer and he ran into the back of it. He wrote a book about his life that included working on the movie Born Free and Vic Mature's Safari and the Cowboy in Africa series. We are in that book. His son, a highly decorated mercenary soldier died of leukemia before Steve did. his first wife died in a plane crash and he remarried a lady whose father was the only man in his Polish military class to survive WWII-that fellow was a hunter too whose daughter (steve's second wife) had a girl about my age. I never knew what happened to Steve's father in law or step daughter-I think Gotcha followed Steve to RSA and worked for him there. Everyone I knew who would know is no longer alive though.



  3. #113
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    Re: Train station knife attack kills 27, injures 109 in China

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Steve moved to the RSA after uncovering a poaching scandal that made his safety in Kenya untenable. Plus kenya closed down hunting so his profession ended. He died years later when a truck hauling a boat lost the trailer and he ran into the back of it. He wrote a book about his life that included working on the movie Born Free and Vic Mature's Safari and the Cowboy in Africa series. We are in that book. His son, a highly decorated mercenary soldier died of leukemia before Steve did. his first wife died in a plane crash and he remarried a lady whose father was the only man in his Polish military class to survive WWII-that fellow was a hunter too whose daughter (steve's second wife) had a girl about my age. I never knew what happened to Steve's father in law or step daughter-I think Gotcha followed Steve to RSA and worked for him there. Everyone I knew who would know is no longer alive though.
    How interesting! It certainly sounds like he had an exciting life.

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    Re: Train station knife attack kills 27, injures 109 in China

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that's really stupid. Guns have many uses. I own LOTS of guns Some are for hunting, some are for self defense, but most are for competition. I own lots of knives. Some are for eating, some are for cutting up cardboard but many are for self defense.

    Chemical weapons are pretty crappy for self defense and so is an RPG. If you miss with an RPG, your opponent can easily kill you with just about any type of firearm, or edged weapon. Someone with an RPG is easily killed by a man with a rifle since most of us who are skilled with rifles can hit a man sized target at several hundred yards.
    1) I've been hunting. We usually shoot the animal and kill it. So when I said guns are used to shoot and injure, what part of that did you not understand?
    2) The effectiveness of chemical weapons or RPG's was not in question. The point was that you can apply the same argument to more dangerous weapons, i.e. that we should be allowed to own them, especially if your justification is that we need guns to protect us from the government

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    Re: Train station knife attack kills 27, injures 109 in China

    Quote Originally Posted by theaterofdreams View Post
    1) I've been hunting. We usually shoot the animal and kill it. So when I said guns are used to shoot and injure, what part of that did you not understand?
    2) The effectiveness of chemical weapons or RPG's was not in question. The point was that you can apply the same argument to more dangerous weapons, i.e. that we should be allowed to own them, especially if your justification is that we need guns to protect us from the government
    What about target/competition shooting? You aren't killing anything. It's a sport. And about your chemical weapons, etc., people have seemed to be happy with using firearms for self defense for a long time now.

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    Re: Train station knife attack kills 27, injures 109 in China

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    Holy **** man, what's with China and knife attacks?

    Anyway, hope for a safe recovery for the survivors.
    It is what happens when governments remove the citizens guns. The premise behind it with all governments is "never bring a knife to a gun fight".
    It's nothing more than X's and O's.

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    Re: Train station knife attack kills 27, injures 109 in China

    I dunno. I mean, how many more lives could this gang have taken had they been using firearms? 27 people killed with knives. Surely they could have trebled that at the very least.

    Where's Bruce when you need him?

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    Re: Train station knife attack kills 27, injures 109 in China

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    What about target/competition shooting? You aren't killing anything. It's a sport. And about your chemical weapons, etc., people have seemed to be happy with using firearms for self defense for a long time now.
    1) Fair enough, though the primary and overwhelming purpose of guns is as I stated, to kill, injure, or threaten violence.
    2) I made no mention about self-defense in my second point. I was talking about the disparity between the arms we are allowed to own, and the weapons the government has, and could use against us. You can argue that the 2nd amendment could be interpreted to allow private citizens to own any contemporary weapon system.
    3) As far as self-defense goes, I'm not sure how many shooting deaths we need in this country before people realize more guns is not the solution. We have women getting shot in the face after being in a car accident, mentally ill people being shot by police for no reason, simple fist fights escalating to fatal shootings. At what point do guns start saving lives because I think we're all still waiting.

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    Re: Train station knife attack kills 27, injures 109 in China

    Quote Originally Posted by theaterofdreams View Post
    1) Fair enough, though the primary and overwhelming purpose of guns is as I stated, to kill, injure, or threaten violence.
    2) I made no mention about self-defense in my second point. I was talking about the disparity between the arms we are allowed to own, and the weapons the government has, and could use against us. You can argue that the 2nd amendment could be interpreted to allow private citizens to own any contemporary weapon system.
    3) As far as self-defense goes, I'm not sure how many shooting deaths we need in this country before people realize more guns is not the solution. We have women getting shot in the face after being in a car accident, mentally ill people being shot by police for no reason, simple fist fights escalating to fatal shootings. At what point do guns start saving lives because I think we're all still waiting.
    The thing is, guns are not going to disappear. The "bad guys" will always be able to get them, so if you want to defend yourself, your family and your home against an armed intruder with a weapon other than a firearm, be my guest, but I don't know how successful you would be.

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    Re: Train station knife attack kills 27, injures 109 in China

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    The thing is, guns are not going to disappear. The "bad guys" will always be able to get them, so if you want to defend yourself, your family and your home against an armed intruder with a weapon other than a firearm, be my guest, but I don't know how successful you would be.
    This is an old argument, and obviously there is no perfect solution, but considering how many "law abiding" gun owners are committing fatal and non-fatal shootings, you can no longer only fear criminals.

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