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Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

Montecresto said:
Hey bud, I'm not satisfied that he's harmed anything. Embarrassed, perhaps. For me, Snowden is a whistle blower and the benefit outweighs the cost. I've had a problem with the NSA since the Church committees findings.
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I would still have to go back to the point are our people worse off now than they were before with risk? Mover if you have read all I have laid out. Then you can see why I would go with him being the traitor.

As I noted.....all he needed to validate to the press was that they had such a program. There was no need concerning anything else. Which again leaves him making moves wherein other countries have benefitted from what he knows.
 
Montecresto said:
My apologies, I didn't mean for that link.


Federal judge says NSA program appears to violate Constitution - NBC News
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Yeah, it is the one I thought. Let me quote with some highlighting:

A federal judge ruled Monday that the National Security Agency’s gathering of data on all telephone calls made in the United States appears to violate the Constitution’s protection against unreasonable searches.
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The judge found that the two were likely to prevail under the Fourth Amendment, the Constitution’s protection against unreasonable search and seizure.
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Leon said that the government was acting in an “understandable zeal to protect our homeland,” and acknowledged that there were national security interests and new constitutional issues in play.
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So some one whose opinion kinda matters, as opposed to Joe Blow on some news program(or random internet poster), actually was far from certain on the constitutional issues.

Note that this ruling came in December, not yesterday, and was far from, as you put it:

Montecresto said:
U.S. District Court Judge Richard Leon has handed down a blockbuster decision this afternoon finding that the massive National Security Agency surveillance program is unconstitutional.
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specklebang said:
Without Snowden, the NSA would have continued increasing their surveillance of everyone and everything. If you think that being watched is necessary for your safety, then Snowden was a bad an. If you think that the NSA and other agencies should respect the 4th amendment and the other constitutional protections, then Snowden is a hero.

I think most people would rather be safe than be private. After all, only a bad person would care about being watched. Good people commit no crimes so their life should be an open book.

Do you realize that if the police could search everyone's home from time to time, you would virtually eliminate all crime and terrorism. Who would dare operate a meth lab or a bomb factory if they could be searched at any time? What do you ever write in your letters that you would care if it was read for the greater good of the nation?
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Snowden is no hero.
 
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Snowden is an all-American patriot, unlike that halfrican we have in office.
 
MrVicchio said:
Snowden is no hero.
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Other than my typo, I really offered 2 POVs.

" If you think that being watched is necessary for your safety, then Snowden was a bad man. If you think that the NSA and other agencies should respect the 4th amendment and the other constitutional protections, then Snowden is a hero."

Personally, I think he's a self-sacrificing idiot rather than either a hero or a bad guy.
 
specklebang said:
Other than my typo, I really offered 2 POVs.

" If you think that being watched is necessary for your safety, then Snowden was a bad man. If you think that the NSA and other agencies should respect the 4th amendment and the other constitutional protections, then Snowden is a hero."

Personally, I think he's a self-sacrificing idiot rather than either a hero or a bad guy.
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You are justifying the means to the ends. He badly damaged the reputation of the country, he stole secrets, he fled to two of our enemies (and yes, Russia and China don't like us). While I am in agreement the NSA stuff is bad... Two wrongs don't make a right. Think about this, he left the USA because the "Government is spying!" and he landed in China and Russia...

The irony there is palpable.
 
MrVicchio said:
He badly damaged the reputation of the country
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It deserved to have its reputation damaged for what it was doing.

he stole secrets
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That shouldn't have been secrets, and what did he do with them, he let the public know about them. It was our job, our duty as citizens of the US to get outraged and throw the bums out for this.

he fled to two of our enemies
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Ehh. We're not at war or something even close to it with either China or Russia. If he stayed here Obama would have thrown him in prison for telling us the awful things Obama has been doing.
 
JayDubya said:
That shouldn't have been secrets
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Well yes, it should've but let's ignore the metadata storage: intelligence collection operations against Germany, Mexico, and China shouldn't have secret? lol Do you think intelligence agencies should exist at all?
 
Redress said:
Yeah, it is the one I thought. Let me quote with some highlighting:







So some one whose opinion kinda matters, as opposed to Joe Blow on some news program(or random internet poster), actually was far from certain on the constitutional issues.

Note that this ruling came in December, not yesterday, and was far from, as you put it:
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This deserves to be repeated. Not only do some people have a hard time separating their opinions from facts, they have a hard time even accurately sharing other people's opinions. I don't know why Monte felt like he needed to lie/exaggerate, but I can take a guess...
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Well yes, it should've but let's ignore the metadata storage: intelligence collection operations against Germany, Mexico, and China shouldn't have secret? lol Do you think intelligence agencies should exist at all?
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You're on the wrong side of history, I'm afraid.

Espionage is an act of war. We spied on our allies. This is generally the act of a distrustful, and distrusting agent. And god only knows how much we were spending to do so.


Always amazes me how stridently the so called small gov types defend the apparatus utilized to enable "big brother".
 
KevinKohler said:
You're on the wrong side of history, I'm afraid.

Espionage is an act of war. We spied on our allies. This is generally the act of a distrustful, and distrusting agent. And god only knows how much we were spending to do so.


Always amazes me how stridently the so called small gov types defend the apparatus utilized to enable "big brother".
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lol everyone spies on each other, dude. You're on the wrong side of history.

But the question at hand is how Snowden apologists explain him sharing details on US intelligence operations against other countries. So far we've had one person weigh in and say he "didn't care". lol
 
OldWorldOrder said:
lol everyone spies on each other, dude. You're on the wrong side of history.

But the question at hand is how Snowden apologists explain him sharing details on US intelligence operations against other countries. So far we've had one person weigh in and say he "didn't care". lol
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So says the person self named "Old World Order", lol.

The era of distrust is coming to a close. The internet is bridging the gaps between the citizens of the countries of the world. Our governments are still mired in old ways, but that's changing. Is it any surprise the whistle blower happens to be young?

We talk about these countries as if they are enemies. Why? China is good enough for us to export our labor to, our money, our debt, but not a modicum of trust?

That era is coming to a close, and the more we cling to an old way of operating, the more we will become isolated, alone, and in general, left behind.

Snowden slapped the wrist of a giant reaching it's paw into the cookie jar. That is not without repercussions. But I'll certainly not vilify him for it, and call for a bullit to his head. Why?

Because I don't believe in tyranny.
 
KevinKohler said:
So says the person self named "Old World Order", lol.

The era of distrust is coming to a close. The internet is bridging the gaps between the citizens of the countries of the world. Our governments are still mired in old ways, but that's changing. Is it any surprise the whistle blower happens to be young?

We talk about these countries as if they are enemies. Why? China is good enough for us to export our labor to, our money, our debt, but not a modicum of trust?

That era is coming to a close, and the more we cling to an old way of operating, the more we will become isolated, alone, and in general, left behind.

Snowden slapped the wrist of a giant reaching it's paw into the cookie jar. That is not without repercussions. But I'll certainly not vilify him for it, and call for a bullit to his head. Why?

Because I don't believe in tyranny.
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Ahhh, utopianism. That's cute.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Ahhh, utopianism. That's cute.
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Not really. I mean, yes, at some point, 1,000 years from now, providing we don't extinct ourselves...

But over the very real short term...100 years or so, peace through familiarity and understanding thanks to unprecedented communication and connectivity? A perfectly reasonable expectation, IMO. The only thing in our way are cultures mired in old ways of thinking, tradition, antiquated mind sets, stuborness, etc.

Power is being stripped from groups and given to individuals. Just look at Snowden, lol.
 
KevinKohler said:
Not really. I mean, yes, at some point, 1,000 years from now, providing we don't extinct ourselves...

But over the very real short term...100 years or so, peace through familiarity and understanding thanks to unprecedented communication and connectivity? A perfectly reasonable expectation, IMO. The only thing in our way are cultures mired in old ways of thinking, tradition, antiquated mind sets, stuborness, etc.

Power is being stripped from groups and given to individuals. Just look at Snowden, lol.
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That's...the definition of utopianism.

lol
 
Here is the latest Poll I found.....the Majority thinks he should be brought back to stand trial for his crimes. Which I would disagree with. Why? What for? Why waste money and all that time and appealing and always being up in the news. He is a traitor to the Country. Pop 2 caps into the back of his head and leave him laying wherever. If in Russia.....so be it. At least he goes out knowing We cared enough to Reach out and touch him.


Poll: Most think Edward Snowden should stand trial in U.S
Jan 23, 2014 <<<<<!

130609090503_Edward-Snowden.jpg


Most Americans - 61 percent - think Snowden should have to stand trial in the United States for his actions. Far fewer - 23 percent - think he should be granted amnesty. Republicans, Democrats, and independents all agree on this as well.

Meanwhile, 31 percent approve of Snowden's actions, while most, 54 percent, disapprove. Majorities of Republicans, Democrats, and independents disapprove.Americans are divided as to the impact on the country from making the NSA program public. While 40 percent think the disclosure has been good for the country, 46 percent think it has been bad.

When asked to come up with a word that describes Edward Snowden, nearly a quarter volunteer either traitor or a similar word that questions his loyalty to his country, while 8 percent say he is "brave" or "courageous" or "a hero". Just 2 percent volunteered that he is a patriot or patriotic, and another 2 percent say "terrorist".[/B]

Fifty-eight percent of Americans disapprove of federal government agencies collecting the phone records of average Americans, the same percentage as in June, when the secret NSA surveillance program was disclosed.

It has been revealed that the NSA listened to phone calls made by some foreign leaders who are allies of the U.S. Fifty percent think this is acceptable, while 44 percent do not.


President-Obamas-Handling-of-NSA-Surveillance.jpg


Overall, 41 percent of Americans think the government has gone too far in infringing on people's privacy in its efforts to fight terrorism, while 43 percent think the balance is about right, [B]and 12 percent think the government has not gone far enough.....snip~

Poll: Most think Edward Snowden should stand trial in U.S. | wtsp.com
 
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OldWorldOrder said:
That's...the definition of utopianism.

lol
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Yeah, I guess it is, isn't it?

I still think there will be problems. Poverty, hunger, etc.


Just nothing we'll go to war over. It's hard to engage in wholesale slaughter of people who liked one of your Facebook posts, as a citizenry.
 
KevinKohler said:
Yeah, I guess it is, isn't it?

I still think there will be problems. Poverty, hunger, etc.


Just nothing we'll go to war over. It's hard to engage in wholesale slaughter of people who liked one of your Facebook posts, as a citizenry.
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Okay, that's fantastic. In the mean time, nations will still engage in intelligence operations.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Okay, that's fantastic. In the mean time, nations will still engage in intelligence operations.
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And as evidenced by the PUBLIC outrage over it, the bulk of nations citizenry disagree with it.

And in a democracy...especially one with brave men and women willing to become martyrs to expose secrets and lies...the folks who pertuate these actions and mind sets will more and more come under scrutiny and eventually unemployment.


Times are changing, Old World Order, believe it or not, like it or not.
 
KevinKohler said:
And as evidenced by the PUBLIC outrage over it, the bulk of nations citizenry disagree with it.

And in a democracy...especially one with brave men and women willing to become martyrs to expose secrets and lies...the folks who pertuate these actions and mind sets will more and more come under scrutiny and eventually unemployment.


Times are changing, Old World Order, believe it or not, like it or not.
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lol okay. Let's close up all the intelligence agencies in the world and just smile!
 
MMC said:
Here is the latest Poll I found.....the Majority thinks he should be brought back to stand trial for his crimes. Which I would disagree with. Why? What for? Why waste money and all that time and appealing and always being up in the news. He is a traitor to the Country. Pop 2 caps into the back of his head and leave him laying wherever. If in Russia.....so be it. At least he goes out knowing We cared enough to Reach out and touch him.


Poll: Most think Edward Snowden should stand trial in U.S
Jan 23, 2014 <<<<<!

130609090503_Edward-Snowden.jpg


Most Americans - 61 percent - think Snowden should have to stand trial in the United States for his actions. Far fewer - 23 percent - think he should be granted amnesty. Republicans, Democrats, and independents all agree on this as well.

Meanwhile, 31 percent approve of Snowden's actions, while most, 54 percent, disapprove. Majorities of Republicans, Democrats, and independents disapprove.Americans are divided as to the impact on the country from making the NSA program public. While 40 percent think the disclosure has been good for the country, 46 percent think it has been bad.

When asked to come up with a word that describes Edward Snowden, nearly a quarter volunteer either traitor or a similar word that questions his loyalty to his country, while 8 percent say he is "brave" or "courageous" or "a hero". Just 2 percent volunteered that he is a patriot or patriotic, and another 2 percent say "terrorist".[/B]

Fifty-eight percent of Americans disapprove of federal government agencies collecting the phone records of average Americans, the same percentage as in June, when the secret NSA surveillance program was disclosed.

It has been revealed that the NSA listened to phone calls made by some foreign leaders who are allies of the U.S. Fifty percent think this is acceptable, while 44 percent do not.


President-Obamas-Handling-of-NSA-Surveillance.jpg


Overall, 41 percent of Americans think the government has gone too far in infringing on people's privacy in its efforts to fight terrorism, while 43 percent think the balance is about right, [B]and 12 percent think the government has not gone far enough.....snip~

Poll: Most think Edward Snowden should stand trial in U.S. | wtsp.com
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So basically Americans are saying two wrongs don't make a right. I'm cool with that BUT!!! Only because there was/is no avenue for reporting wrong doing on the government. And Obama, had on his 08 platform, improving protections for whistle blowers while in all actuality hasn't just failed to provide it, he has prosecuted more of them than any of his predecessors. And I want to point out that while Americans don't approve of committing a crime to expose a crime, your source points out that 58% still disapprove of the NSA's crime!! And the only reason that's not 100% is that we have ******s that are willing to trade their liberties for security, never mind that the NSA has secured NOTHING!!
 
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