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Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

RabidAlpaca said:
So you think what he revealed might be worth revealing, but you don't like the way he did it? So the difference to you between hero and traitor is how he presents the information to the American people? Of course he's trying to avoid prosecution. If they treat him half as bad as Manning he'll go years without trial while being tortured. What he did afterwards has nothing to do with the message.
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The difference between a criminal and one who is not might be whether one follows the law in regards to handling issues with classified documents. If he had issue with the contents of those documents, there is a procedure to follow that would not make him a criminal. He chose instead to be one.
 
Redress said:
The difference between a criminal and one who is not might be whether one follows the law in regards to handling issues with classified documents. If he had issue with the contents of those documents, there is a procedure to follow that would not make him a criminal. He chose instead to be one.
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Oh yes, I remember your position now. You're in the "There are proper channels he could've chosen." group. You can't really use that to challenge the president and congress. You're reporting to them something they already know and are actively choosing to do. That never would've brought this to light.
 
Redress said:
The difference between a criminal and one who is not might be whether one follows the law in regards to handling issues with classified documents. If he had issue with the contents of those documents, there is a procedure to follow that would not make him a criminal. He chose instead to be one.
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Obviously if you go to the government to report on government misconduct they will care. Next you will tell us to go to the supreme court to keep the other branches in check. :lol:
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Oh yes, I remember your position now. You're in the "There are proper channels he could've chosen." group. You can't really use that to challenge the president and congress. You're reporting to them something they already know and are actively choosing to do. That never would've brought this to light.
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They are also the ones we the people chose to empower to make certain decisions. No one, period, empowered Snowden to decide for the whole ****ing country what should and should not be classified. We have laws. There are reasons for those laws. Usually good reasons, as is the case of the Espionage Act.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Oh yes, I remember your position now. You're in the "There are proper channels he could've chosen." group. You can't really use that to challenge the president and congress. You're reporting to them something they already know and are actively choosing to do. That never would've brought this to light.
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I was looking more at that hey he found the NSA program and what it entailed and gave it to the press. Just like he did with all the other intel. Not that he had to search out other programs from his buddy's computer. Nor to get into that system with his buddy's password. Look for any other connected programs either. That he should have left to the press.

Doing it this way......then he could be looked at as a whistleblower. The fact that he went well beyond this. Bears out why most think he is a traitor, which leads to those other reasons I had thrown up.
 
Henrin said:
Obviously if you go to the government to report on government misconduct they will care.
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That is the system we have in this country. We even have methods to change the system if you don't like it. Good luck with that.
 
Redress said:
That is the system we have in this country. We even have methods to change the system if you don't like it. Good luck with that.
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Does that somehow change how nonsensical it is? The government is violating the Constitution. I know, lets go to the government to report on it! That is like a kid being picked on reporting it to the bully.
 
Henrin said:
Does that somehow change how nonsensical it is? The government is violating the Constitution. I know, lets go to the government to report on it! That is like a kid being picked on reporting it to the bully.
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We do not allow random Joe Blow to decide what is constitutional or not in this country, just as we do not allow random Joe Blow to decide what should and should not be classified. Those are examples of things in place for a very good reason.
 
MMC said:
Mornin' HD. :2wave: No.....I don't and I never have. But I pretty much stand with what the majority in the Military stands on. You didn't think because one who leads and agrees with the majority that makes them a follow amongst other leaders now did you?

Also since he has continued on and think he can improve the NSA and that he thinks he is still working for him. Doesn't help his case any.

Which says nothing about him screwing his buddy over and destroying that guys life and livelihood.
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Yes, leadership is a good thing, and there will always be followers, rule of nature.

And so good leadership is also moral, always moral?
 
Redress said:
That is the system we have in this country. We even have methods to change the system if you don't like it. Good luck with that.
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Good luck indeed.

The system loves the way it is, and everybody else can kiss its ass.

Only a fool believes that the individual citizen, or even groups of thousands, can control in any way the actions of government. In reality, not in theory.
 
Redress said:
You do not understand the difference between political gain and personal gain? Really?
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I didn't say that I don't, you concluded I don't, for some reason. I don't see where Snowden gained anything at all, political or otherwise, so I asked my question. If you don't have an answer, that is fine.
 
Redress said:
We do not allow random Joe Blow to decide what is constitutional or not in this country, just as we do not allow random Joe Blow to decide what should and should not be classified. Those are examples of things in place for a very good reason.
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No, we allow nine people that are part of government to decide on what is constitutional for government to do. That system makes sense. :lol: I hear it has worked out real well and government control hasn't exploded. Good thing, I was worried that idea was idiotic.
 
Bigfoot 88 said:
Anybody who intentionally changes the meaning of the words of the Constitution is inherently dishonest and not a true scholar.
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it's the outcome from the Unitary POTUS.
Congress hasn't any real interest in checking executive power - the Senate and House Intelligence Committees members campaign funds benefit from "intelligence contractors"

Intelligence contractors donate millions to intelligence watchdogs in Congress | Center for Public Integrity
Most intelligence-related spending by the U.S. government is subject to independent scrutiny and monitoring by a small number of people — primarily, the 40 lawmakers assigned to the House and Senate intelligence committees, plus the roughly 100-member staffs of those two committees.
The lawmakers are meant to provide a key check on waste, fraud, abuse, and potential illegalities, since intelligence-related spending and activities are ordinarily well outside the public’s view.

According to a new report, however, every single one of those lawmakers has received campaign funds from twenty of the largest contractors providing intelligence services to the Defense Department, which accounted for a signficant portion of the nation’s overall $75.4 billion intelligence budget in 2012.
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Every lawmaker on intel committees received money from top intel companies - Columbia Independent | Examiner.com

add in the desire to be "safe" at any cost to personal liberty, or the Constitution itself ( even though any real threat blocks are yet to be demonstrated) +
the general overreach of the executive branch = winds up with a recipe for a "general warrant" - prohibited under the 4th
Fourth Amendment legal definition of Fourth Amendment. Fourth Amendment synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.
 
Redress said:
We do not allow random Joe Blow to decide what is constitutional or not in this country, just as we do not allow random Joe Blow to decide what should and should not be classified. Those are examples of things in place for a very good reason.
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I'm sure you realize how stupid your idea is. Reporting government misconduct to the government has no effect what so ever. They won't care, they won't change their behavior, and no one will find out about it. Usually when people want to cause change it's a good idea to avoid actions that are entirely useless towards those ends.
 
Henrin said:
Does that somehow change how nonsensical it is? The government is violating the Constitution. I know, lets go to the government to report on it! That is like a kid being picked on reporting it to the bully.
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Hahaha! In your opinion it is. That doesn't make it a fact, and a great many constitutional scholars, to include federal judges, disagree with you.

It's like some of you are physically unable to understand that your opinion didn't necessarily equal a fact.
 
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Henrin said:
I'm sure you realize how stupid your idea is. Reporting government misconduct to the government has no effect what so ever. They won't care, they won't change their behavior, and no one will find out about it. Usually when people want to cause change it's a good idea to avoid actions that are entirely useless towards those ends.
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And why do you keep acting like the government isn't made up of hundreds of thousands of US citizens? It's not us vs them, they ARE us.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
And why do you keep acting like the government isn't made up of hundreds of thousands of US citizens? It's not us vs them, they ARE us.
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Why do you not understand power structures?
 
"Traitor or Hero" -don't think he qualifies for either, in that he has some aspects of both. He stole classified data - does that make him a traitor? did he release it in full to Russia?

If so -is there any permanent harm done?
He's not a particular hero either, though he did give up a cushy high paying job, and is living in exile ( under penalty of prosecution if he returns).

He is some of each, but I don't think he really qualifies to be labeled either term. Just my opinion.
 
Henrin said:
What organization holds power and authority over the population? The government perhaps?
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Is this your expert analysis? The government is made up of people. It's not assume group of overlords that is busy repressing you. The more you come to understand that, the more silly and shrill your complaints appear.

Anyway YOU think their actions are unconstitutional. That's your opinion. That doesn't make it fact.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Is this your expert analysis? The government is made up of people. It's not assume group of overlords that is busy repressing you. The more you come to understand that, the more silly and shrill your complaints appear.
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Who makes the rules of that we all must follow? Who has the domain of force? The government. The sooner you realize they are not your friend, the sooner you will stop treating them as such.

Anyway YOU think their actions are unconstitutional. That's your opinion. That doesn't make it fact.
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...and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause ... and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. I'm guessing I missed the warrant this afternoon when I logged onto Debate Politics.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
 
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Redress said:
They are also the ones we the people chose to empower to make certain decisions. No one, period, empowered Snowden to decide for the whole ****ing country what should and should not be classified. We have laws. There are reasons for those laws. Usually good reasons, as is the case of the Espionage Act.
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Ok, so no matter how horrible of a thing the government does, all of the government workers should shut their mouths. People in power can do whatever they want, and it's none of the American people's business what they do.

You're rare. Most people don't flat out condemn all whistleblowing, no matter what the issue. I don't think there's much of a reason to debate with someone who has such an extreme position.
 
Henrin said:
Who makes the rules of that we all must follow? Who has the domain of force? The government.
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The people that work in government, directed by the people that you vote on.

The sooner you realize they are not your friend, the sooner you will stop treating them as such.
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lol wtf. Wait correct me if I'm wrong: you see the US government as an enemy to you and the perhaps even "the people" of the United States?

...and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause ... and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. I'm guessing I missed the warrant this afternoon when I logged onto Debate Politics.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
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Right, and in your opinion metadata storage violates that. That's your opinion. I honestly laugh hard as **** when people can't figure out that just because they have an opinion doesn't mean it's a fact. Very entertaining.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
The people that work in government, directed by the people that you vote on.
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Which are the ruling class for the very reason they work for the government and have power over the people.


lol wtf. Wait correct me if I'm wrong: you see the US government as an enemy to you and the perhaps even "the people" of the United States?
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Have they somehow proven to be the peoples friends at some point in history? I must have missed that part in history. Can you tell me about it? Maybe you can refer me to a book on that time period.

Right, and in your opinion metadata storage violates that. That's your opinion. I honestly laugh hard as **** when people can't figure out that just because they have an opinion doesn't mean it's a fact. Very entertaining.
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Nope, if you can understand the english language it's rather obvious.
 
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