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Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

Ron Paul doing something stupid? How shocking...

I am not into letting probable criminals getting off without persecution. I am a law and order type.

So you would like to see the NSA prosecuted.
 
True Constitutional scholars are on my side. I could understand why those who choose to be liars and subvert it while hiding behind their law degree would "disagree" with me.


U.S. District Court Judge Richard Leon has handed down a blockbuster decision this afternoon finding that the massive National Security Agency surveillance program is unconstitutional.
 
Unless you have any relevant points, YOU get out.

Turley does not support the NSA program, or the drone program, or the illegal invasion of Iraq, or most things that neo-cons do support.
 
First, they prosecute Clapper and McCullogh, and then let's discuss the persecution of Snowden. Clapper and McCullogh perjured themselves before our elected representatives and we're not even sure Snowden did anything criminal. If Justice is to be served, we should start at home, don't you think?

No, they don't think. It's always ok for government to do whatever they want. Jim Sensenbrenner (of patriot act fame no less) finds the NSA program unconstitutional and has bi-partisan support for a bill that would overhaul, bring "meaningful reform" to the NSA. Snowden's disclosures have opened a much needed debate!
 
Look lets make this simple instead.....of you talking ****. You got anything with Constitutional attorneys saying that Snowden didn't break the Law.

But in many people's opinions, Snowden's broken law trumps the much larger crime against all Americans by the NSA.
 
If there are, I haven't seen any. And that isn't surprising.

The 4th amendment is very clear: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

A true scholar might disagree with my interpretation of it and have something historical to back up their opinion with. Some writings from the Framers for instance. Maybe a piece of common law which better defines what words meant at the time.

But someone hiding behind their law degree might just say something like: "Well, we need this for national security, this is the mainstream view, we have had wartime powers before...."

In other words, they can't actually debate the Constitution but instead use their law degree as an appeal to legal authority.

After hearing a thorough defense of the NSA's monitoring of Americans' phone calls, Megyn Kelly discussed it with constitutional law expert Jonathan Turley, who took particular issue with Obama referring to the program as a "modest encroachment" on privacy. He called that statement "laughable," saying Obama did not address the questions that civil libertarians like himself have been asking since the Bush administration.

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/06/0...urley-obamas-defense-nsa-monitoring-laughable
 
But in many people's opinions, Snowden's broken law trumps the much larger crime against all Americans by the NSA.

This is where the discussion always gets stupid. Both can be crimes, and one does not mitigate the other.
 
U.S. District Court Judge Richard Leon has handed down a blockbuster decision this afternoon finding that the massive National Security Agency surveillance program is unconstitutional.

I see no reference to him making any ruling today. Do you have a link? Or are you referring to the opinion he issued in December, which was neither yesterday nor quite what you represent?
 
But in many people's opinions, Snowden's broken law trumps the much larger crime against all Americans by the NSA.

Mornin' Monte. :2wave: Do people even pay attention to the things that Snowden has stated himself. Do you think that his behavior and his own words sets himself up?

You don't believe that BS that he thought he was trying to Improve the NSA, do you?


"I already won," Snowden said. "As soon as the journalists were able to work, everything that I had been trying to do was validated. Because, remember, I didn't want to change society. I wanted to give society a chance to determine if it should change itself."

Last week, a White House-appointed panel proposed curbs on some key NSA surveillance operations, recommending limits on a program to collect records of billions of telephone calls, and new tests before Washington spies on foreign leaders. The panel's proposals were made in the wake of Snowden's revelations.

President Barack Obama later tried to strike a middle ground, saying some checks were needed on the NSA's surveillance, but "we can't unilaterally disarm.

In the interview, Snowden denied he was trying to bring down the NSA. "I am working to improve the NSA," he said. "I am still working for the NSA right now. They are the only ones who don't realize it.".....snip~

Mission accomplished, says Snowden: Washington Post - Reuters News 12/23/2013 11:34 PM

Yes the guy who used another to get into some things, using some program to trace and copy over intel, and all that validated experience which shows he is one of the most intelligent people in the intelligence world and able to act as a cryptologist with all he never understood. But knowing it was important. :roll:.....
sarcasm2.gif


Do you think he could have went to the Press with the barest of Validated info and still proved his point without endangering others and affect US National Interests?
 
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'Former Congressman Ron Paul has launched a petition to attempt to garner clemency for NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden. The "Demand Clemency for Edward Snowden" petition includes the clip below, Paul calls on supporters to sign the petition in an attempt to bring Snowden home to the US safely before his temporary visa in Russia expires in July.

On the heels of his son Rand Paul's lawsuit against the Obama nd the NSA seeking to stop its collection of phone metadata, Ron Paul states "Edward Snowden shocked the world when he exposed the NSA’s illegal and abusive spying program. Instead of applauding him for his bravery and patriotism, the U.S. government labels Snowden a traitor."

By signing this petition, Paul notes on his Channel's website, "you are telling the US government that Mr. Snowden deserves the right to come home without the fear of persecution or imprisonment."'

Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden | Zero Hedge

This is why I never could vote for Ron Paul. No matter how much I agree with his ideas, he come up with crap like this.
 
As I stated before, when you answer my question I'll answer yours.

Isn't it kind of pathetic I've had to ask you 3 times and you still won't answer?


Now you know I wouldn't avoid your question my friend.....which I thought you had what I stated. Not to mention I have talked about how he could have done something while still getting the same results. Without trying to avoid prosecution of laws he knows he broke deliberately.
 
So you would like to see the NSA prosecuted.

It would be hard to "prosecute the NSA" without prosecuting the CIC. So, short answer? Hell no the Libbos don't want to prosecute the NSA.
 
Anyone have a current Poll on who thinks he is Traitor or Hero? What is the majority saying now?
 
This is where the discussion always gets stupid. Both can be crimes, and one does not mitigate the other.

The discussion always gets stupid here because one IS a crime and the other is just something that some people think SHOULD BE a crime.

And it's usually people that know nothing about national defense or intelligence work in general, to say nothing of signals intelligence in particular.
 
The discussion always gets stupid here because one IS a crime and the other is just something that some people think SHOULD BE a crime.

And it's usually people that know nothing about national defense or intelligence work in general, to say nothing of signals intelligence in particular.

You are correct. To the best of my knowledge NSA follows the law, but the law may be unconstitutional. Either way, what NSA does does not mitigate what Snowden did, which is, was, and always will be espionage. People get so caught up in labels and NSA that they seem to lose sight of this. Espionage should never be excused.
 
Anyone have a current Poll on who thinks he is Traitor or Hero? What is the majority saying now?

Greetings, MMC. :2wave:

I read something recently, can't remember where, that most people think he is a hero, because he pulled the curtain back to show people the dark ugly side of what is going on, that they would not know otherwise. Was it the right thing to do? I don't know, but you can bet most officials don't like having secrets revealed any more than the rest of us do...hence the outraged clamor!
 
To those whom he worked with.....and to his Country.

No, he was NOT a traitor to his country.

He exposed, big time, the crimes committed by the government of his country. His country and its government are 2 separate entities, and always have been.

Certain propagandists have long worked to blur the line between government and country. For many emotional folks that effort to blur has succeeded. For others, not so much.

Ellsberg, Drake, Manning, Snowden, Assange and others understand that government and country are 2 different things. One to be loved and respected, the other to NEVER be trusted.
 
Anyone have a current Poll on who thinks he is Traitor or Hero? What is the majority saying now?

Do you need the majority to decide your moral issues for you?

I don't.

The majority is usually not much more intelligent than a pack of dogs. You know, "mob mentality". It's real.

What is the difference between a lynch mob and a pack of dogs? I'm not sure, besides that one group's members have 4 legs and the other 2 legs.
 
Do you need the majority to decide your moral issues for you?

I don't.

The majority is usually not much more intelligent than a pack of dogs. You know, "mob mentality". It's real.

What is the difference between a lynch mob and a pack of dogs? I'm not sure, besides that one group's members have 4 legs and the other 2 legs.


Mornin' HD. :2wave: No.....I don't and I never have. But I pretty much stand with what the majority in the Military stands on. You didn't think because one who leads and agrees with the majority that makes them a follow amongst other leaders now did you?

Also since he has continued on and think he can improve the NSA and that he thinks he is still working for him. Doesn't help his case any.

Which says nothing about him screwing his buddy over and destroying that guys life and livelihood.
 
You are correct. To the best of my knowledge NSA follows the law, but the law may be unconstitutional. Either way, what NSA does does not mitigate what Snowden did, which is, was, and always will be espionage. People get so caught up in labels and NSA that they seem to lose sight of this. Espionage should never be excused.

One person's hero is another person's villain. Being a diehard Bush Patriot Act and domestic spying supporter, you see him as a villain. How you must hate the traitors George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. You could start a petition for school books to define them as traitorous criminals.

If the law unconstitutional as a court suggested, IF he had taken an oath to protect the Constitution then his release of the information was not only legal, but required. Possibly if he had taken such an oath and the actions unconstitutional, he could be prosecuted for not making it known. But, then, you're obviously down on the Constitution and Bill Of Rights too.

It is amazing how many people now see acting to "preserve and protect the Constitution of the United States" as criminal traitor actions warranting execution or life imprisonment.

At what point did so many Americans come to hate the Bill Of Rights in their personal paranoia?
 
One person's hero is another person's villain. Being a diehard Bush Patriot Act and domestic spying supporter, you see him as a villain. How you must hate the traitors George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. You could start a petition for school books to define them as traitorous criminals.

If the law unconstitutional as a court suggested, IF he had taken an oath to protect the Constitution then his release of the information was not only legal, but required. Possibly if he had taken such an oath and the actions unconstitutional, he could be prosecuted for not making it known. But, then, you're obviously down on the Constitution and Bill Of Rights too.

It is amazing how many people now see acting to "preserve and protect the Constitution of the United States" as criminal traitor actions warranting execution or life imprisonment.

At what point did so many Americans come to hate the Bill Of Rights in their personal paranoia?

We live in strange times, where we need a "gun lobby" to have the Government follow its OWN RULE (the 2A.)

We have threads on this forum where people who pledge to keep their oath to defend the constitution are regarded by most posters as crazy/paranoid traitors.

And all champions of liberty are seen as "extreme."

At what point did this occur? IMO its been a slow incremental process. 10 Years ago if you claimed that the NSA were doing what we now know they're doing, you were "crazy." 5 Years ago that made you "paranoid." Now the response is "So?"
 
Now you know I wouldn't avoid your question my friend.....which I thought you had what I stated. Not to mention I have talked about how he could have done something while still getting the same results. Without trying to avoid prosecution of laws he knows he broke deliberately.

So you think what he revealed might be worth revealing, but you don't like the way he did it? So the difference to you between hero and traitor is how he presents the information to the American people? Of course he's trying to avoid prosecution. If they treat him half as bad as Manning he'll go years without trial while being tortured. What he did afterwards has nothing to do with the message.
 
One person's hero is another person's villain. Being a diehard Bush Patriot Act and domestic spying supporter, you see him as a villain. How you must hate the traitors George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. You could start a petition for school books to define them as traitorous criminals.

If the law unconstitutional as a court suggested, IF he had taken an oath to protect the Constitution then his release of the information was not only legal, but required. Possibly if he had taken such an oath and the actions unconstitutional, he could be prosecuted for not making it known. But, then, you're obviously down on the Constitution and Bill Of Rights too.

It is amazing how many people now see acting to "preserve and protect the Constitution of the United States" as criminal traitor actions warranting execution or life imprisonment.

At what point did so many Americans come to hate the Bill Of Rights in their personal paranoia?

Seriously, why do you keep repeating stupid ****, even when corrected on it. My thoughts on the Patriot Act(which in fact is that it has good and bad parts) and domestic surveillance are entirely unrelated to whether I think espionage laws should be enforced.

Your ignorance of the law, and ignorance of how people think, is shown not only is saying so many untrue things, but in the fact you have to try and fit Snowden into a neat label, hero or villain. People are actually usually much more complex than that.
 
One person's hero is another person's villain. Being a diehard Bush Patriot Act and domestic spying supporter, you see him as a villain. How you must hate the traitors George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. You could start a petition for school books to define them as traitorous criminals.

If the law unconstitutional as a court suggested, IF he had taken an oath to protect the Constitution then his release of the information was not only legal, but required. Possibly if he had taken such an oath and the actions unconstitutional, he could be prosecuted for not making it known. But, then, you're obviously down on the Constitution and Bill Of Rights too.

It is amazing how many people now see acting to "preserve and protect the Constitution of the United States" as criminal traitor actions warranting execution or life imprisonment.

At what point did so many Americans come to hate the Bill Of Rights in their personal paranoia?

lol is this a serious post? An emotional screed wherein anyone that disagrees with the poster is "unamerican" and thus bad. Straight out of a McCarthy hearing and dangerously straddling poe's law.
 
Oh wow, and then crazy melodramatic posts by Lachean and Rabid, this is fantastic!
 
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