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Thread: Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

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    Re: Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    But, of course, anyone that disagrees with you isn't a "true" constitutional scholar...

    It's a a fallacy called No True Scotsman, and it's embarrassing that a (seemingly) adult would engage in it. Laughable.

    Yeah not even other Constitutional Attorneys.....that have articles up across the Net. Guess they are hard to find on backpages.com.

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    Re: Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Look lets make this simple instead.....of you talking ****. You got anything with Constitutional attorneys saying that Snowden didn't break the Law.
    No.

    Although, even I am not claiming Snowden didn't break the law. I acknowledge it. He acknowledges it.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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    Re: Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    But, of course, anyone that disagrees with you isn't a "true" constitutional scholar...

    It's a a fallacy called No True Scotsman, and it's embarrassing that a (seemingly) adult would engage in it. Laughable.
    Actually, you came up with that phrase, not me, which would make you guilty of a strawman fallacy.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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    Re: Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    Actually, you came up with that phrase, not me, which would make you guilty of a strawman fallacy.
    Haha no I didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    True Constitutional scholars are on my side. I could understand why those who choose to be liars and subvert it while hiding behind their law degree would "disagree" with me.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    When you realize he took more information that he himself didn't understand. Then decided to share with other countries. Put others at risk. Despite his argument of wanting to show what the NSA was doing. Then you will realize like most others that are in Special Ops and other Clandestine agencies. How he is classified as a traitor.
    Are you sure of that? Can you link me to something that indicates he revealed secret agents? Why, we had a case in recent years of the WH leaking the names of a secret agent, nobody was prosecuted. So, do you have a fact about this or just a general sense that Snowden revealed information that was deadlier than the revelations of the overall spying?

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    Re: Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    To those whom he worked with.....and to his Country.
    The only ones who betrayed the country are the NSA agents wiping their asses with the 4th amendment and the elected officials who continue to allow them to do that.Not the guy who revealed that these people are wiping their asses with the 4th amendment.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Haha no I didn't.
    Wrong again. I never said one could only be a true Constitutional scholar to agree with me. I said true Constitutional scholars do agree with me.

    Aside from scholars, there are also those who chose to not be scholars, instead hiding behind their law degree to subvert the Constitution. Honestly is a trait of scholarship.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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    Re: Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    Wrong again. I never said one could only be a true Constitutional scholar to agree with me. I said true Constitutional scholars do agree with me.

    Aside from scholars, there are also those who chose to not be scholars, instead hiding behind their law degree to subvert the Constitution. Honestly is a trait of scholarship.
    So are there true constitutional scholars that don't agree with you? Then what was the point of saying "True Constitutional scholars are on my side"? lol is this you trying to backtrack now?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Are you sure of that? Can you link me to something that indicates he revealed secret agents? Why, we had a case in recent years of the WH leaking the names of a secret agent, nobody was prosecuted. So, do you have a fact about this or just a general sense that Snowden revealed information that was deadlier than the revelations of the overall spying?

    Sure SB......and any can look Hugh Hewitt.com up to and look at all his articles up over it.

    Here's what Dr. Wolff Heintschel von Heinegg, an international expert on laws governing cyber conflicts and cyber warfare, told Business Insider (emphasis ours):

    "All of the targets [Snowden] was referring to [in reference to the NSA hacking China] was either espionage or some other interference with the cyber infrastructure in another state. ... That doesn't mean everything was 'lawful,' but under international law there is no prohibition of espionage."

    Dr. von Heinegg noted that if any of the NSA hacks on Chinese universities, hospitals, and private businesses caused damage in real life — e.g. patients dying — that would at least be a violation of the prohibition to inflict serious damage on another state (but short of an act of war).

    Snowden's leaks to China, along with evidence of cyber espionage by China against the U.S., do reveal a vicious circle of cyber spying between the two countries — but that's how espionage works.

    Dr. von Heinegg explains why this leak by Snowden doesn't amount to whistleblowing: (emphasis ours)

    "Let's be quite clear: Intruding into another state's systems in order to figure out what's in there — that's simply espionage, everybody's doing it. ... The answer of international law [regarding espionage] is: 'Don't get caught while you're doing it on foreign territory.' That's all."

    He added that spying is spying, whether it's a "diplomat" with wigs or rooms full of hackers, and that "only the means are different" from what occurred during the Cold War.

    Nevertheless, Snowden told the South China Morning Post that he plans to divulge information to other countries as well:

    "If I have time to go through this information, I would like to make it available to journalists in each country to make their own assessment, independent of my bias, as to whether or not the knowledge of US network operations against their people should be published."

    Consequently, Snowden's leaks to China suggest "that his actions aren't motivated by loyalty to his country, but, instead, by a personal view of how the world should work," as Business Insider CEO Henry Blodget wrote recently.

    Read more: Snowden Is Both A Hero And A Traitor - Business Insider

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    Re: Ron Paul Launches Clemency Petition For Edward Snowden

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    So are there true constitutional scholars that don't agree with you? Then what was the point of saying "True Constitutional scholars are on my side"? lol is this you trying to backtrack now?
    If there are, I haven't seen any. And that isn't surprising.

    The 4th amendment is very clear: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    A true scholar might disagree with my interpretation of it and have something historical to back up their opinion with. Some writings from the Framers for instance. Maybe a piece of common law which better defines what words meant at the time.

    But someone hiding behind their law degree might just say something like: "Well, we need this for national security, this is the mainstream view, we have had wartime powers before...."

    In other words, they can't actually debate the Constitution but instead use their law degree as an appeal to legal authority.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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